To not discipline DS for shouting at an adult

[riverotter]

DS(10) is normally quiet and quite polite. However, he can explode a bit if pushed.

He was at a friend's house last night and I picked him up at just after 8. The mum seemed a bit quiet and this morning she sent a text asking if we could talk so I called her.

Her version is that DS shouted and slammed a glass down on the table and it made everybody feel very uncomfortable. Obviously I asked what brought it on and she said it was because her mum, so his friend's grandma, had offered DS a sandwich!

So I spoke to DS. He started crying and said he did but he didn't really like any of them so kept saying no thank you, no thank you. But apparently the gran kept saying go on, have one, they are nice, I've been making these all afternoon. He said she was waving one in his face when he shouted 'no, I said no.' (I actually taught him that phrase a while back.)

So - discipline or not? I'm not sure how to deal with this. I hate rudeness but I hate people who won't say no for an answer as well.

Sometimes we seem to hold children to higher standards than adults when it comes to controlling or understanding emotions and feelings.

He said "no thank you" repeatedly and was ignored.

As an adult, I would find that annoying. I wouldn't bang a glass down because of a sandwich, but if I felt I was repeating myself over and over and being ignored I would be annoyed.

If the only way to make the person ignoring me listen to what I was saying was to sound annoyed when I said no for the tenth time in a row then I might use that tone of voice, or I might be more direct and say "I don't want to, thank you, but please stop asking" but a child feeling under pressure in someone else's home might not think that clearly.

The grandmother might have thought she was being a good host but equally she was making him feel stressed and under pressure because she'd made the sandwiches and she wanted everyone to eat one. She kept telling him how long it took her and how nice they were. It was as much about her as it was about him, but she was the adult and he couldn't cope.

He's a child. Children can over-react just because they can't process things as some adults can. If the OP speaks to him and explains he can't bang glasses around even if he does feel under pressure, she could maybe discuss other ways to deal with the issue.

Not taking a sandwich to be polite, but maybe asking to be excused from the table or saying he doesn't want a sandwich as he is full but could he have a glass of water instead please.

And a discussion on how feelings are one thing but certain ways of acting on them isn't always appropriate, so if he's getting upset and someone isn't listening to him, if he can remove himself before he explodes (such as asking to be excused) or focus them on something else (such as getting him a glass of water or allowing him to go get one) is better as everyone then has a moment to take a step back and do something differently.

JigglyTuff to you.

i find people who gossip about children not worth listening to. And people who make their own parenting decisions based on nasty gossip about children certainly not people I would want my child to spend time with.

Life isn't like that, though, is it? It isn't neatly divided into "nasty gossips" you can avoid and others you can spend time with who will maintain strict confidentiality over all aspects of your interactions. Unltimately, people speak to each other. Certainly, kids speak to their parents. Every child at that house is likely to have gone home and told his/her parents that this boy has behaved in this way. If this thread is anything to go by, 65/70% of them will think he has been really rude to a granny. And that's before you factor in the fact that kids often wildly exaggerate. It's also perfectly likely that one of the other kids will tell some unrelated children an exaggerated version of the tale, who then tell their parents....

Equally, one of the other collecting parents may well have spotted that the hostess was quiet and asked her if all was okay and if everyone had had a good time. Hostess then may well have told them what had happened. She may well have solicited other opinions from other parents - in the interests of doing the right thing - as to whether she should speak to the boy's mother or not.

On any of these scenarios, both of which are pretty likely and neither of which involve any malice aforethought, the OP's son is potentially disadvantaged, even if only because that's the only thing that some people will know about him. And that's before you factor in that there may actually be a so called nasty gossip in the mix somewhere - not unheard of at all.

to be aware that hosts will have taken trouble to cook for them, so it's good to show polite appreciation. So it wouldn't be good to sit through a meal at a table and refuse course after course My god, we just love reading what isn't there, don't we? It was plate of sandwiches, not a three course meal. A plate of sandwiches prepared for everyone. Not just the lad in question!

How about if he couldn't eat it due to allergies? Cultural issues? Should he still have eaten something just to appease his overbearing hosts?

He is too old to behave like this. I would be ashamed of his behaviour. What an appalling way to act. So then the grandmother is also too old to act like a pushy dictator, refusing to take no for answer. That also, is an appalling way to act towards a guest!

Yes, different we certainly love reading what isn't there.

The relevant part of my post read...

"I do find the incident weird. I think it is good to try and encourage children towards trying new foods and to be aware that hosts will have taken trouble to cook for them, so it's good to show polite appreciation. So it wouldn't be good to sit through a meal at a table and refuse course after course. It would be better to make an effort to eat things even if the foods you like most weren't there.

But it makes absolutely no sense to try and force food on a child at picnic and/or buffet when they have already eaten a fair amount of what's on offer. Isn't the whole point of these more informal meals is that you can relax a bit and get to choose what to put on your plate."

"AIBU To not discipline DS for shouting at an adult"

What have you decided, OP? Do you think he should be disciplined in some way for shouting at an adult and slamming a glass down? Will you ask him to apologise to the host family?

I seem to remember that somewhere in this long thread, you did say that you were concerned about him having this sort of over-reaction (which suggests he's had a few). Given that, I do think you have to do something to deal with this particular over-reaction.
I understand your pride in having one's child able to stand up for itself, but that's not really what he did (albeit that he tried to, in the beginning). He lost it! I think you are right to be concerned.

In your position, I would probably ask him to apologise to the host family, and I wouldn't dwell on the gran's behavior (in this particular instance her behavior doesn't excuse your son over-reaction) other than to perhaps use it as an example to teach him a better, calmer way to deal with such situations.

Imagine a big boy smashing his way around your dinner table! Dear me. Oh please...how patronising. No one said he smashed anything...he put a glass down with force...not great, but hardly turning the table upside down.

I wouldn't tell my kid off for that. I'd have a talk and discuss appropriate coping strategies for the future but it sounds like he wasn't being listened to and got upset.

Life isn't like that, though, is it? It isn't neatly divided into "nasty gossips" you can avoid and others you can spend time with who will maintain strict confidentiality over all aspects of your interactions

I don't gossip about other people's children, and I don't listen to those who do. You might do so.

I think this thread very much reflect our current society and the divide between children who are taught good manners from an early age because their parents think that good manners will take them further in life, and those parents who think that teaching children that their needs should come first because this will take them further in life.

Good manners is about being polite, and showing consideration to other people. You can have good manners and be taught that nobody can override your wishes when it comes to decisions about you and your body.

Where were the grandmother's good manners? She was rude to constantly ask the same question because she wasn't happy with the consistent, but negative, she received from a child. Where was her consideration towards the child she constantly questioned?

The child showed good manners, he was polite and responded "No thank you" to her questions ... until it got to the stage where he felt he was not being listened to and, because he is a child and hasn't yet learnt the nuances of being firm but not forceful, resorted to retaliatory rudeness. Is that polite or ideal behaviour? No, but under the circumstances it is understandable that he didn't consider all the polite options.

As an adult I have had occasions where I have been badgered and it continued despite my polite "No, thank you"; it even continued despite my firm "Thank you, but I do not want it, please do not ask me again" and the badgering only stopped when I resorted to "I have said no. How many more times do I need to say it before you will leave me alone?" in my most frustrated (and slightly angry) tone, as the person finally realised that maybe, no meant no.

I'm also still waiting for all the people on this thread who have said the child should just keep saying "No thank you" ad nauseum to quantify the number of times you have to say it before you are allowed to get frustrated that you are being ignored, and whether or not that number is different based on whether it's two adults talking or an adult and a child.

I think this thread very much reflect our current society and the divide between children who are taught good manners from an early age because their parents think that good manners will take them further in life, and those parents who think that teaching children that their needs should come first because this will take them further in life

I think you didn't RTFT and are pontificating without basis.

This child had good manners, the host did not. The child showed his manners up until the point the host pushed him into being firmer.

My children have excellent manners, but are also taught that their needs do not come second to adults just because they are children. They are taught that adults expectations are not more important than their own boundaries. They are taught that politeness is a good thing, but when others do not give you the same respect you give them, there is an end to politeness and a time to stand up for yourself.

Teach your children to be polite. But try also being polite to children, and respect them as people. The host here did not do so, and caused the issue. And they are old enough to know better, this child is only 10.

Some brilliant posts on here, that have been a pleasure to read.

Thank god there are lots of people that share the same views that adults are not 'right' by default (just by simply being an adult).

My children also have brilliant manners, and at the same time I am teaching them to respect their own boundaries too.

There's a bit in the film Matilda where the Dad says to her 'I'm big, you're small, I'm right and you're wrong'.

My parents were like this. It's taken me a very long time to start standing up for myself in my thirties!

My kids have grasped it a lot earlier

There's no need for discipline as such, but chatting through other various options/reactions would be what I'd do.

I don't gossip about other people's children, and I don't listen to those who do

Sadly, I think you may be in a minority. In my experience, some mothers (and it is the mothers, sadly) have nothing better to do than slag off other people's children (and their mothers).

I remember finding out about an incident at another school in my town many years ago. A friend's daughter was at that school and she was surprised I had heard about it as I had no connection with the school whatsoever. But it happens.

However, I don't think 10 year olds are going to go and tell their parents that so and so got annoyed because he didn't want a sandwich. Maybe. But I think they have better things to occupy their lives with.

65/70% of them will think he has been really rude to a granny.

I really don't understand why the fact that she's 'a granny' makes a difference. Would you consider it less rude if he'd said it to the mother?

People complain about 'casual ageism' on here all the time, but it works both ways. Casting a woman you've never met in the role of a dear sweet white-haired old gwanny who will have been sobbing into her lace hanky all afternoon over such behaviour is just as ageist as dismissing her as a stupid old bat.

I find Natalia's depictions of the social shunning that she feels is bound to follow rather sinister, tbh. It sounds like something out of a cult.

The thing is OP, it sounds (from your son's account) like granny was too pushy and should have taken 'no' for an answer. But what can you do about that? Nothing - if you go back to the host and say so it won't go down well.

But you know that your son's reaction to being pushed wasn't appropriate. It was inappropriate enough to cause offence at the hosts house. So your son should still receive a punishment or at least a chat about his behaviour.

You can't shield your son from all pushy people in life - but you can teach him how to handle himself in these situations without causing offence.

The ageism on this thread has not been "casual." It's been very pointed and deliberate. As soon as the word " grandmother" was mentioned, there was a pile on of all sorts of assumptions about her age, condition, and motivations. There has been some sexism too, but that has been more casual.

The ageism has been mostly from those defending the grandmother. All that guff about the nasty boy not eating the sandwiches she struggled to make so lovingly with her gnarled and useless old hands.....
That's ageism. Incidentally so is the vicious directed at a child where there would not be any had he been older. Also ageism.

However, I don't think 10 year olds are going to go and tell their parents that so and so got annoyed because he didn't want a sandwich. You don't know many 10 year olds then. They would have had a good old chat about it amongst themselves and probably would have ribbed the DS about being 'stressy'.

Of course kids talk.
Of course parents talk.

Look at how many people are talking here. And we don't even know the people involved.

Kids don't talk to each other about their supposed rudeness at someone else house.
Adults who do are vacuous gossips who need a better topic of conversation. If anyone told me this story IRL I wouldn't believe a word of it and I'd tell them I'm not interested in their pathetic gossiping about children.

You don't get to badger a child (especially in front of other people who are all sat there watching this child be asked repeatedly)

This. Perhaps all of the adults watching a child be bullied were raised to be cowards polite. Amazing that a 10 year old has to be the first to tell this person that she has lacks social graces.

It takes some of us years to be able to say gently but firmly "You're badgering me now. Best stop." He has a head start, good for him.

I think you have to let him know you're not cross with him but he should apologise for slamming the drink down & shouting. Because he looks then the bigger person/he isn't labelled a naughty child and he doesn't lose out on friends.

And you tell the host you spoke to him, he's sorry, he felt pressured & you're giving him the tools to deal with such situations. And then you give him the tools for politely but affirmatively dealing with insistent people.

Lets hope none of the teachers try to cajole him into anything at school then!

Lets hope none of the teachers try to cajole him into anything at school then

As long as they don't wave lunch in his face insisting he eat it while embarassing him, that is the point. Because the teacher would be in an awful lot of trouble.

For some reason I started thinking about Jane Austen - I suppose this is about manners and small communities and etiquette.

She regarded children as noisy and boisterous - not to be judged by the standards of civilised society till they were around 16. (Lydia Bennett was admitted to adult society before she was properly ready, and this was one of the reasons for her eventual downfall.)

The main incident of rudeness is in the picnic at Box Hill. Emma's rudeness to the elderly Miss Bates is seen as a failing, but Emma is judged because an adult from a privileged family, who had a governess - she is expected to have mastered the rules of civilised society, even though the narrative makes it clear that Miss Bates is very trying indeed.

We should remember that even so Emma is shown to be an essentially decent woman who is worthy to be loved by Mr Knightly.

Whereas if Mumsnet were writing the novel she'd have been cast out by the residents of Highbury and ended up in a Portsmouth crack den.