To ask what has gone wrong in the UK

[Mumof56]

I'm talking about the latest sex grooming case in Newcastle. It's the seventh large scale sex gang scandal to hit the UK after cases from towns including Rotherham, Rochdale, Oxford and Bristol

I have seen nothing on mumsnet about this (although maybe I've missed it). This is shocking and outrageous. How has this been allowed to happen in so many areas? What is the solution?

This is "rape culture". Where are the (peaceful) protests and the show of support for these girls?

By segregating them at such a young age, the parents themselves were creating an 'us and them' attitude which was no doubt being passed onto the kids.

Segregation is another interesting thing, clearly something that is unhelpful to our society in general. But surely one of the reasons for it is when we first had large scale immigration people clustered together for safety/ as it was the only place anyone would rent to them because of racism? And they have tended to stay in the same areas.... So surely we are blaming immigrants for something that certainly initially they had no choice over.

Opting out is a simple way of ensuring cultural, religious and educational segregation.

They (whoever they are) prevent their children from learning about other religions, evolution, sex education and so keep their children in the same ghetto they're in.

This is how Neanderthals like that 18 year old rapist grow up and get away with racism, sex offences and religious discrimination.

inews.co.uk/essentials/news/uk/antisemitism-rise-attacks-britains-jews-increase-nearly-third/

Religious schools are the beginning of the end of integration.

But surely one of the reasons for it [segregation] is when we first had large scale immigration people clustered together for safety/ as it was the only place anyone would rent to them because of racism?

To a degree, but the outcomes seem a little different between, say, African-Caribbean- and Pakistani-heritage communities, both of which have faced appalling racism and structural issues; I think religion-driven segregation is part of the picture.

I think you are right that religion-based segregation a big issue. It's interesting as gingernaut points out that there are more and more varied religious schools meaning the state is actually adding to it

Only skim read the thread, but I thought this imam's lecture posted on one of my Facebook feeds was interesting. And no, I'm not Muslim.

www.facebook.com/ajmal.masroor.7/videos/10155607028889439/

It's not just reilgions based though is it? We have had a very peaceful but very closed off orthodox jewish (hassidic jews etc) population for many decades in the Uk with none of this kind of thing happening to girls from outside their community.

Is the white girls are loose moralled and fair game thing, I am not allowed sex outside marriage with my Asian neighbour's daughter who has her virginity preserved by her father so I will use local working class white girls instead.

The orthodox community has some issues (e.g. homosexuality, women who try to leave) and it can be extremely difficult for those within to seek help externally. Being a numerically tiny group, and geographically very localised, makes them invisible to most of the non-orthodox population of the UK which has its benefits and drawbacks.

And, without being too flippant, being super-observant probably keeps a person busy.

SomethingOnce- no one has scapegoated the working class here (I refer to an earlier post of yours). I'd also never equate working class with under class- be very careful about that.

Re: Catholic church- it's not solely girls affected- far from it. I also think that abuse is less about sex than power.

strikeit My DM is religious, came to this country in the late 70s and was horrified by the illiteracy and the isolation she saw amongst a certain section of the Pakistani community.

Yes, it was around the '80s when my grandfather started to get very concerned.

He came to Britain in the late 40s with his siblings; the family had been Sufi for centuries (one of his great uncles lived in a tekke for years and never married). Of course, back then, there just weren't any Muslims in our area at all.

That started to change in the late 50s, and he made friends with a number of Pakistani immigrants, who had come from rather educated backgrounds back in India. I still know their grandchildren today, and what is noticeable is that they are totally integrated into British society -- and seem more English than than English, iykwim.

But then in the late 70s, there was a real difference in the make-up of Muslim migrants to Britain. They were very poor, from very rural areas, had no English, and, to him, seemed to have a very fragile grasp on the tenets of the religion. But then, he'd come from a family of scholarly mystics steeped in very esoteric concepts so I'm not sure whether his expectations were entirely realistic. He certainly left me with an understanding that is really rather enigmatic.

But it was the Rushdie affair that really bothered him. He found it completely unfathomable. He said it was just nonsense from a clerical and theological point of view as it was Shia guidance that wasn't binding on Sunni muslims, something to do with it not being a proper fatwa in the first place, and that you couldn't blaspheme against the Prophet Mohammed anyway (which you can't; the Prophet Mohammed isn't divine).

But they were burning books in the street over it. And he couldn't believe the British authorities were allowing such a thing to happen. I remember him watching the TV, shaking his head and saying "This is not good. This is not good at all." He thought the people protesting were being used, but could not work out why or by whom, or what the point of it was. He also felt it was going to frighten the English when what we needed was to be close friends and neighbours.

He was heartbroken over 7/7. He went really quiet, stopped going out as much to see his friends, and died a few years later. I think it was the shame of it that affected him so badly at his advanced age. There was always a very strong sense of honour in him: not that "izzat" sense we have in Britain now from South Asia, but more that one had to be noble, ethical and brave, "like Saladin".

I dread to think how he would have reacted to these grooming cases.

Talking of shame, there's a very good article by Nazir Afzal in today's Daily Mail (I know. I know) about the gross mysogyny in some sections of the Asian community and how it affects the women of those communities. It is really worth reading.

I, for one, did not know that the wife of the Rochdale grooming gang leader Shabir Ahmed had killed herself.

So many victims. There are just no words for it.

No one has scapegoated the working class here (I refer to an earlier post of yours). I'd also never equate working class with under class- be very careful about that.

Mairead, first off, I didn't say anybody on this thread had done; it was a general observation.

Secondly, in your haste to jump on me (seriously, this jumping on people at the first perceived opportunity when everyone is having a civil and interesting discussion needs to stop) perhaps you failed to notice I had put '' and brackets around the word underclass, suggesting that I was not equating the one with the other. It is however a word that is used to stigmatise a particular section of society.

Thanks for the warning though, eh?

Suicides amongst Asian women (Sikh, Hindu and Muslim) has been the cause of a significant proportion of suicide by train for decades. Evening Standard article from 2007

Abra, what you say about your grandfather breaks my heart; it's sad to think of him feeling the weight of misplaced shame in his later years

www.independent.co.uk/voices/newcastle-grooming-scandal-exploitation-victims-sarah-champion-race-a7890106.html

Well this is extremely interesting and educational. Thank you to the
knowledgable posters who are writing so eloquently.

I think the only way to deal with this is to give perpetrators life and drugs to render paedophiles impotent via chemical castration www.independent.co.uk/news/sweden-begins-drugs-trial-to-prevent-paedophiles-abusing-children-a7019231.html I think that would be a big deterrent.

I'm afraid I don't think there's any other way. The fact is many different sectors of society including the highly educated are also perpetrating this crime who should know better. I agree immigrants from backward thinking areas are also an issue as they have a low opinion of women in general, white 'trash'. I can't see their own society turning in on themselves as that would mean going against their own and admitting to the outside world their culture has serious problems, if women have to be so secretive they can't even get treatment for illnesses they're hardly going to turn their men in or admit anything is wrong as that would be shameful. I think punishment for these crimes has to severe and the courts mean business.

People will soon learn and no interference will be necessary or pussyfooting around. It's plain and simple this treatment of any child will not be tolerated and will be reflected in the punishments given, surveillance used to catch them: on the internet, cctv, people spotting unusual behaviour like the brave woman who reported the Rotherham cases.

Do the immans have to be crb checked and attend any training. In C of E ministers usually have a theology degree

It's worth remembering first of all that "imam" literally translates to "leader", so although it's often taken to mean the head of a masjid (mosque), it can equally mean someone who leads a small group or even an entire nation

The most important requirements of an imam is that they're learned in the Quran and Islamic practice of all types and also in good standing in the community. There are indeed Islamic seminaries, but some communities have imams who hold their positions on the basis of local reputation rather than actual formal qualifications

It therefore follows that CRB/DBS checking - while regarded by many as good practice - isn't always carried out

Can I also offer this excellent article which explains many of the issues raised here in straightforward language: www.sheffield.ac.uk/polopoly_fs/1.701049!/file/Muslim_culture_training_book_2017.pdf

Thanks

It's rather heavy

Abra, your grandfather sounds lovely
The trouble is that the voice of moderation and reason is rarely given a platform. I agree that there is a huge problem with misogyny in the Asian culture. I am still optimistic as I have seen a lot of good work done by both women and men in challenging some behaviours. Our local mosque imam and his wife have been instrumental and unrelenting in their quest to address many many social issues. The message is slowly filtering through.

MumstheWord, I mentioned upthread that I am aware there is a segment in the Pakistani society where men treat white women as 'trash'. I must stress that their attitude is not limited to white women, and their wives suffer in a way that you cannot imagine. As Abra mentioned, the wife of one of the Rochdale gang killed herself. That poor woman. I didnt know this either. I cannot imagine the horrors that she suffered. The gangs targetted white vulnerable women who nobody used to care about. They were easy targets. What we don't know is how many Asian women have also been targetted by these gangs. Asian women are equally vulnerable and easy targets in that they would never reveal their ordeal for fear of shame, isolation and the victim blaming that they would have to endure. Misogyny is at the heart of it all.

I'm looking more at targeting all groups who do this not specific cultures. My point was not all men have the excuse of lack of education and it is not easy for those whose own culture does this to turn on themselves for fear of retribution as they are hardly in a position of power themselves. All men like this need to be dealt with whatever their background and no man no matter who they are should be safe or protected to get away with this. I'm talking about people high up in our society who got away with abuse visiting care homes too. Any person who does this basically. Everyone who has any kind of power needs to show intolerance and not turn a blind eye to these people behaving like this now there is so much awareness eg Jimmy Saville etc etc. So many different cases.

Reading about all the various cases has infuriated me. People in vulnerable situations are constantly preyed on, children for example in refugee camps. It just goes on everywhere. Where men should act as protectors they are doing the opposite and they are actually the perpetrators of such awful crimes against children. I've found it very hard to get my head around how prolific it is and how it's actually not just a tiny minority of sick individuals it makes you question everything.

And also for a society to treat its own women like that is very sad. The fact they have to treat them like that to 'keep them under control' like that is very sad for those women and I'm not entirely surprised their reach of nasty behaviour isn't reserved for outside the home, after all a leopard can't change its spots. They must be nasty individuals at heart educated or not. That's no excuse anyway.

I mean uneducated or not.