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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask what has gone wrong in the UK

551 replies

Mumof56 · 10/08/2017 01:29

I'm talking about the latest sex grooming case in Newcastle. It's the seventh large scale sex gang scandal to hit the UK after cases from towns including Rotherham, Rochdale, Oxford and Bristol

I have seen nothing on mumsnet about this (although maybe I've missed it). This is shocking and outrageous. How has this been allowed to happen in so many areas? What is the solution?

This is "rape culture". Where are the (peaceful) protests and the show of support for these girls?

OP posts:
TheFirstMrsDV · 12/08/2017 19:49

I know what you mean mum but I think there is a real danger of overlooking the Asian victims of these sex offenders if we believe that to be the whole truth.
Personally I feel that the perpetrators have been emboldened by their ability to get away with raping asian women and girls. Entrenched attitudes towards victims of sexual abuse have allowed them to 'branch out'

If those men have never abused a non-white woman/girl I would be astounded.

Abranamechangus · 12/08/2017 20:08

What frightens me is laws being changed to Sharia Law.

What is often not made clear, to both Muslims (bizarrely) and people of other faiths, is that sharia law is not all the same. There are several schools of shariah jurisprudence within the Sunni religious tradition alone, and some of them are remarkably more conservative than others.

Again, within a school of jurisprudence itself, a lot depends on interpretation, which can vary wildly. For example, there is a well-known and respected salafist scholar at Al-Azhar that fervently maintains the wearing of the niqab is anti-Islamic. No-one dares argue with him because he has the reputation of being an excellent scholar and a hardcore Islamic purist, but because of the nature of the wider Sunni global community, which has no equivalent of a "Pope" figure or any "Vatican" style oversight of religious matters, high clerical interpretations such as his never filter down. Instead, it is the Saudi clerics with TV channel exposure that are heard and believed (and who come out with absolute tosh).

One of the problems in Britain is that you have poorly-qualified individuals acting as mullahs, clerics and judges who are applying cultural judgements under the guise of shariah law, and do so with certain community political motivations in mind.

One way to think of the situation is to consider the paradigm as somewhat similar to the legal, religious and social circumstances that surrounded the Salem witch trials. You have isolated communities, a climate of over-dependence on religious and cultural identity as binding community tools against a hostile "other", powerful community leaders with religious and judicial oversight, and a rather legally ill-informed and dis-empowered populace.

Indeed, to my mind, a lot of the problems we see in this area are down to the circumstances in which this particular diaspora formed and evolved in Britain under the detrimental policy of political multiculturalism. Political multiculturalism encouraged "mini-Salems" in poor immigrant Muslim communities in Britain by defining identity through ethnicity and religion in terms of state policy, and supporting, inadvertently, isolationism, ghettoisation, and the position of "community leader" as not only the voice of said communities, but also responsible for the behaviour and policing of said communities.

Basically, Britain took Victorian-era colonial policy, applied it to BME communities within the UK itself and called it "multiculturalism". But it is, essentially, just how the British ruled over the myriad ethnic and religious communities in British India.

If you see the situation in this way, it start to become clear just why there has been such a hands-off approach to the mass grooming situations that involve BME perpetrators across the country by both the police and state authorities. It is that old colonial mentality that has been transplanted into Britain where the imperial state structure does not get involved in "community matters", which are left to "community leaders", unless those matters escalate and threaten the wider imperial power structure itself.

Of course, all this approach has done is recreate all the same issues and fault lines within and between communities as they eventually did all across the British Empire. Only the situation in Britain is made more complex and potentially more explosive by the presence of an indigenous (for want of a better word) population that perceives governance and rule, culture and society, in a very different way, and has no collective or historical experience of living as one of many ethnic or religious communities in a defined region under an imperial mantle ... because, of course, in Britain, the definer of oppression was confined to class, which had significantly wider social and economic parameters.

Greentulips You speak very well on this subject - how do you suggest the message gets put across to these people? How do you empower Asian women to speak up and seek help?

The first thing to do is recognise what the situation actually is on the ground. And to be fair, it's worse than most people probably imagine. My DM does a lot of work in cross-community issues, being from a migrant background herself, and the isolation from wider British social and cultural understandings can be vast.

As an example, we have South Asian migrant women in our area, who have lived here for decades, had families, who have very poor English skills, that are astonished to discover that a women can be an MP in this country. Now just consider how isolated you must be to not know that, to not even realise the current PM is female, and you have some idea of how ostracised from wider British culture and society these women are.

As I said above, we have to stop making the problem worse in the first instance, which is why attempts to prevent chain migration are important. I think the state should also send out the message that certain behaviours will not be tolerated within any community at all.

But I'm afraid I don't have much hope. It would take two or three generations of demographic, community and economic stability, along with a large injection of an intensive educational programme across all impoverished communities, to eradicate the problems we are now seeing.

The situation is pretty dire, to be honest, and I can only see tensions between communities getting more and more strained. I never thought it would end up like this twenty years ago. Never.

As a side point, my DM tries, as do a select few of her colleagues, to create cross-cultural opportunities and projects to bring women from different ethnicities and religions together. Unfortunately, the political will is just not there on a wider scale (read: men, both white and Asian, either don't give a damn about this sort of thing, or they don't like it, or they will not support it, so they don't vote for the resource allocation, and nothing ever gets off the ground).

whatsthecomingoverthehill · 12/08/2017 20:29

Abra, thanks for.your input. Really interesting (if rather sobering). I don't think you can really say it's not religious though. Religion is one of many factors, and trying to discern what is religion and what is culture is not always easy, particularly as you say when Islam has more informal structures of authority. Not that it actually matters so much, other than to potentially influence the approaches that could be taken to try and prevent such abuse.

randomuntrainedcuntowner · 12/08/2017 20:30

Child sexual exploitation is also rife in the south west. It's sickening

randomuntrainedcuntowner · 12/08/2017 20:32

It it is not Asians.

SomethingOnce · 12/08/2017 20:46

Reading your measured and well informed posts with interest, Abra.

CockacidalManiac · 12/08/2017 20:49

Fascinating post, Abra.
I wasn't aware of any of this. Have you got any recommended reading?

Maireadplastic · 12/08/2017 21:05

Random- tell us more.

Gingernaut · 12/08/2017 22:18

Abranamechangus Brilliant posts. Thank you.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 12/08/2017 22:31

I'm very much encouraged by the many practical ideas on here about handling these issues, but wonder how posters feel about the likely consequences should any of them actually be acted upon

Time and again we're told that it's not the place of westerners to interfere in the choices of other cultures and even that muslim ladies are strong women who don't need anyone else to speak for them. Worse still, initiatives intended to encourage integration and address radicalisation are all too often damned as Islamophobic, marginalising and much more by those who would prefer nothing to be done at all if it risks the slightest disquiet to any community member

I'd hope all cultures could be mobilised in any such implementation, but however reasonable the ideas I imagine we all know just how loud the reaction would be from some quarters ... so what do we do about this? Do we say, in effect, that such and such is going to happen for the sake of the utterly decent majority, or do we allow a vociferous minority to stifle progress of any sort?

Abranamechangus · 13/08/2017 00:13

Time and again we're told that it's not the place of westerners to interfere in the choices of other cultures and even that muslim ladies are strong women who don't need anyone else to speak for them. Worse still, initiatives intended to encourage integration and address radicalisation are all too often damned as Islamophobic, marginalising and much more by those who would prefer nothing to be done at all if it risks the slightest disquiet to any community member.

Well, this is the problem. And this is why I hold out very little hope.

It has taken fifty years of crap social policy to get us here; it's likely to take us fifty years to get out of it and that's if we started trying to properly tackle it now.

But I cannot actually think of a political entity that has managed to overcome diverse cultural divisions within a region outside of war, some form of partition, or an overarching authoritarian presence.

Take the longest lasting multicultural empire the world has ever seen: the Ottoman Empire. Different cultures lived kinda side by side for hundreds of years under an authoritarian presence (i.e. the Sultanate), though the reach was pretty flaky outside urban centres and port towns.

But when it fell, it fell into massacres, genocide, riots and eventually, a mass population exchange, all based on ethnic and religious lines. Ataturk then stamped a coherent secular Turkish identity on that part of Anatolia in the aftermath, and some of the steps he took were unbelievably extreme. He banned Muslim religious orders; he banned headscarves in civic space; he prohibited non-Turkish minorities from speaking their own language in public; he "turkified" people's last names; he even changed the bloody script of the language for crying out loud.

Again, the US still has not managed to properly integrate its African heritage population, nor come to a successful model for the well-being of its Native American demographic. France, arguably, only managed to forge the French identity in the 19th century because of the impact of the Revolution, its legacy of fraternity, and the fallout of the Napoleonic wars, but now faces new challenges with post-war migrant communities.

I mean, look at Germany. It's nearly 30 years since reunification and there's still residual cultural differences and attitudes between East and West Germans ... and they are the same bloody people.

Then you wonder about Lebanon. Crikey, they went through a horrendous civil war in the 80s, have a confessional political system, but the climate is still uneasy with significant areas under, more or less, sectarian control.

Cyprus is still a divided island. I don't think I really need to mention Ireland and Northern Ireland. And what happened after the death of Tito in Yugoslavia, well, that was a disaster of epic proportions that was only resolved by population exchanges, a UN presence, and, essentially, forced partition of the former republic along ethnic and religious lines.

These examples suggest that it is really bloody hard to create a long-lasting dynamic of integration when communities have vastly different collective histories, cultures, attitudes and beliefs.

And then this begs the question of what are you trying to integrate people into anyway? Concepts of national identity are crumbling. No-one can agree on common values or even what children should be taught in the state education system. Parts of the UK want to cede from the union. Even the Cornish quite fancy going it alone.

I think the myth of the American "melting pot" has caused a lot of damage in that many people in Western Europe presumed it was a) true, b) possible with communities with diverse cultures, and c) achievable in countries with vastly different histories and complex colonial legacies.

That said, we have seen assimilation and integration from people in pre-war and post-war immigrant communities. But look at the circumstances and times this occurred: very small numbers of people (the tiny Yemeni community in interwar Liverpool, for example), very little non-British cultural media prior to the '80s (no satellite TV from back home in a mother tongue), the necessity of both immigrant men and women to enter the British labour market, working alongside British people (far smaller welfare entitlements in the post-war period), and post '68 and '71, legislation that restricted immigration possibilities.

StrikeItPlucky · 13/08/2017 00:55

Abra, you mentioned the middle class Pakistani family who flees the ghetto, so to speak. I am from one of those families. I recognise the harassment of the white woman in Dewsbury by Asian men. What I also know is that the same Asian men have some poor Asian woman at home who has been abused in more ways than we can imagine.
My DM is religious, came to this country in the late 70s and was horrified by the illiteracy and the isolation she saw amongst a certain section of the Pakistani community. As you point out Abra, these communities were mainly originating from remote areas in Pakistan, where literacy in men was not very high, let alone women. I also recognise the Reaction of the Kasmiri man that you mention. My relatives in Pakistan ask me why Pakistanis are doing these things in the UK. They don't recognise this behaviour nor understand it. It is alien. Having said that, they also couldnt believe that UK voted brexit either Grin
Back to the topic, I have been wondering what we can do. The only way forward is the empowerment of women. To educate, inform and support them. Our first hurdle of course would be how you get access to these women as the men they need protecting from, will most certainly not support them and make their lives even more miserable.

The other option is imams at mosques educating the male congregation, but I cannot see that happening, as many imams themselves would need training on how to tackle this issue.

Atenco · 13/08/2017 04:03

Sounds like a similar phenomena to the Mexican immigrants in the US. They cling to traditions that are totally outmoded here in Mexico because it is their IDENTITY.

Lloyd45 · 13/08/2017 05:40

Wow it's only taken to page 17 to admit there is a problem with Pakistani men and how they treat women without being called racist 😊 We are making progress

MyTwoMonkies · 13/08/2017 07:46

Fascinating thread OP and some truly eye opening accounts and experiences.

Abra thank you for you informed and balanced opinions on this.

MaryTheCanary · 13/08/2017 07:48

Abra's posts are really worth reading.

missmollyhadadolly · 13/08/2017 07:57

We should all be getting together to make all women in this country are treated equally no matter what culture or religion you come from. There should be no forced marriages or honour killings, there's no honour in murder

Lloyd Maybe you could start by fighting for equal pay for women? My male colleague gets paid £25k more than me. I do the same job as him but with more responsibility.

I don't think you're bothered about female equality. You just want to stick it to Muslims.

Increasinglymiddleaged · 13/08/2017 08:11

You just want to stick it to Muslims.

I think there is definitely an element of this. It's interesting, Abra clearly has greater knowledge of the section of society that she writes about than me and the trends sound disturbing.

I have, however read quite a lot of books about Asian culture in the UK, particularly forced marriage and honour killings. The books I've read have generally been about Sikhs not Muslims. But I guess that is only rape and abuse of their own women rather than white ones.

To truly tackle this we need to look at the bigger picture of what caused and enabled this abuse to happen. Some of the enabling, like it or not is the attitude of middle class white people towards working class/ troubled teenage girls. Just concentrating on one group in isolation and reading long (albiet informative and pretty horrifying) accounts of issues in their society won't solve it.

woodhill · 13/08/2017 08:53

Do the immans have to be crb checked and attend any training. In C of E ministers usually have a theology degree.

MargaretTwatyer · 13/08/2017 09:10

middleaged, I agree with you. But I also think that there is a fundamental problem with academic (read middle class) theories of equality and oppression at the moment.

The mainstream theory goes currently that white people possess an inherent power simply on the basis that they are white, and therefore white people are always oppressors of those of other colours who are inherently less powerful and thus unable to oppress.

I don't believe this holds true. Because money and sex are much more important indicators of power than race. To tell a poor white woman that she has more power than an Asian man who has money and connections (many in Rotherham had connections on the council) is just ludicrous.

It's very hard to get past this though. It's a very convenient theory for the middle classes. It means that their advantages are the result of their white skin, which they can do nothing about so they can just agonise over race and wring their hands. If they had to admit it had a lot more to do with money and class than race they might have to pay their employees at work and home more money and take less themselves which they just don't want to do.

I honestly think that until we start to look at disadvantage in terms of class and income, regardless of race, things like this are going to keep happening. And the right will continue to rise because working class white people are marginalised and ignored because of the supposed advantage that their skin colour gives them. I doubt many people on northern council estates feel they have much of an advantage in life.

SomethingOnce · 13/08/2017 10:38

It's very hard to get past this though. It's a very convenient theory for the middle classes. It means that their advantages are the result of their white skin, which they can do nothing about so they can just agonise over race and wring their hands.

It's convenient for the middle class full stop.
Plenty of non-white middle class people benefit from this and engage in the exact same handwringing.

Also, amongst middle class people, it seems acceptable to scapegoat the working ('under') class in general. Though, presumably for reasons of intersectionality, this ends up being mainly white working class people. Some of the discourse post-referendum from 'progressives' shocked me.

PrettyGreyEyes · 13/08/2017 10:55

It's been going on certainly since I was young (early 1980s) in the Midlands city i grew up in and it was widely acknowledged to be cultural by everyone and everyone knew about it. Some issued warnings, some ignored it, some refused to believe the girls in question because they came from 'that' kind of background.

We knew what to do to avoid falling prey but we had money and caring parents and older siblings to warn us and protect us. It was opportunistic then rather than organised though as far as I could tell.

It reminds me of the situation with the Catholic Church - too many men involved and important people implicated for it to be stopped or properly investigated. The question is, how would you stop it and where would these men go then to satisfy their urges?

Puzzledandpissedoff · 13/08/2017 11:16

I cannot actually think of a political entity that has managed to overcome diverse cultural divisions within a region outside of war, some form of partition, or an overarching authoritarian presence

And that's precisely what worries me Sad

Terfing · 13/08/2017 12:44

Whilst doing my BA, I did work experience in a primary school. One of my jobs was to supervise the Muslim children during singing and dance class, as their parents had opted them out of these activities. The kids were 5-6 years old! By segregating them at such a young age, the parents themselves were creating an 'us and them' attitude which was no doubt being passed onto the kids. It's the little things like this which add up to this attitude I think. Sad

Increasinglymiddleaged · 13/08/2017 13:29

It reminds me of the situation with the Catholic Church - too many men involved and important people implicated for it to be stopped or properly investigated. The question is, how would you stop it and where would these men go then to satisfy their urges?

You see I disagree with this. It could have been investigated but the choice was taken just to let it continue. Because there was a an attitude that the girls were slags who brought it on themselves and concerns about racial tension.

The men need to control their urges like others do; it is a civilized society that we live in.

I don't think anyone is arguing that there isn't a cultural aspect and the pp has articulated these issues clearly but it is more complex than that. It also reflects misogyny in the whole of society.

I remember again when I was working in a Midlands city girls going missing from children's homes, being brought back by the police then being picked up again by older men an hour later. It frankly to me beggared belief. A friend of mine years later told me she ended up in a children's home and the staff were desperate to get her out of there and into foster care for her own safety.

And of course once a 16yo+ is labelled a 'prostitute' that opens up a whole new level of disregard.