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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To ask what has gone wrong in the UK

551 replies

Mumof56 · 10/08/2017 01:29

I'm talking about the latest sex grooming case in Newcastle. It's the seventh large scale sex gang scandal to hit the UK after cases from towns including Rotherham, Rochdale, Oxford and Bristol

I have seen nothing on mumsnet about this (although maybe I've missed it). This is shocking and outrageous. How has this been allowed to happen in so many areas? What is the solution?

This is "rape culture". Where are the (peaceful) protests and the show of support for these girls?

OP posts:
Firesuit · 10/08/2017 19:22

We won't get nowhere until people stop moaning every time we bring up male violence.
It's a fucking epidemic within our society yet as soon as we try Talk about it, it's all wahhhhhhh not all men.

In a similar vein...

A lot more acts of terrorism are being committed by Muslims than Christians.

We need to do something about Muslim terrorism.

I know some people are offended by this, saying it's not all Muslims, but why are they derailing the discussion about Muslim terrorism by focusing on a few cry-babies hurt feelings, rather than the much greater wrong suffered by terrorist victims?

CockacidalManiac · 10/08/2017 19:27

and what do you propose, Firesuit?

Gonegonegone · 10/08/2017 19:28

Mum Sarah champion isn't on here tell us she hope we realise we are half the problem.

The problem with male violence is men. Not women.

Justanotherlurker · 10/08/2017 19:35

The problem with male violence is men. Not women.

And there is a current issue where MEN from a specific culture are basing there violence on race and or religion, so what do you propose.

derxa · 10/08/2017 19:35

Sarah Champion, the shadow women and equalities minister, said that “people are more afraid to be called a racist than they are afraid to be wrong about calling out child abuse” Well done to her for speaking out.
I heard her on R4 tonight. She predicted that she would be called a racist.

Gentlygrowingoldermale · 10/08/2017 19:38

When Christians were committing acts of terrorism in the UK, no-one but no-one mentioned their religion. Though, in my opinion, irrelevant in the context of male sexual abuse.

Original poster
Mumof56 · 10/08/2017 19:42

@gone

Well I quoted Sarah and you said I was blaming women. Your not sure if she's blaming women, but you are certain I am- based on Sarah's quote.

Confused
OP posts:
Justanotherlurker · 10/08/2017 19:46

When Christians were committing acts of terrorism in the UK

Whataboutry, and irrelevnt, Christians where not committing acts of terrorism in the name of God, but carry on trying to muddy the waters if you must.

"These sort of men have a very negative and in many cases, a racist attitude towards white young girls," said the Ramadhan Foundation's Mohammad Shafiq.

That was Mohammad discussing Rotherham, and the many other incidents have proved him to be right, and when it is was the Catholic church scandal, no one, but no one hesitated in pointing out the religious identity and issues in said identity.

derxa · 10/08/2017 19:56

When Christians were committing acts of terrorism in the UK, no-one but no-one mentioned their religion Well I lived through the 60's and 70's and religion was definitely mentioned. How could it not be. Another red herring.

Lloyd45 · 10/08/2017 19:57

look at Cologne, the Guardian tried to blame the women for flashing off there western ways for the attacks, when they managed to admit it was happening at all

WhateverNextNow · 10/08/2017 20:00

Make no mistake, these sort if predators would not be kinder to non-white women. 'Accessibility' would be more of an issue perhaps. The Asian community by large is sickened by this and horrified.

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 10/08/2017 20:02

I don't think for one minute Sarah Champion is a racist and she has made a good point and is, IMO, brave for saying what she's said. My annoyance is that there's a certain type of person who'll use every excuse in the book when white men commit horrific offences, but then use Asian grooming gangs as license to flaunt their racist rhetoric. these kind of people do not care about women.

If we obliterated all Asian men tomorrow then a lot of the grooming problems would go away, but we'd still have a rampant rape culture.

I find it beyond rich that some posters go on other threads to argue that NAMALT and that women are a problem too and rape culture doesn't exist, but will happily be outraged on other threads about rape in certain circumstances. Pick a side FFS.

Fear of appearing racist has been a problem in cases like the one in the OP. But the primary problem is that victims just aren't believed, particularly vulnerable ones who appear to be happy to be the 'girlfriends' of these men. It would be the same if the grooming gangs were Christian men. Male entitlement is 100% the number one issue here.

With the abuse in the Catholic Church, religion was obviously a factor - but abusers got away with their crimes, because when people found it (and they did), the priests were simply moved to another parish (where they could do it again) and that horrible business was forgotten about. Religion was a factor but fear of being exposed, and seeing the abuse as really not that big of a deal for victims, was the number one reason it went on for so long.

Lloyd45 · 10/08/2017 20:07

The IRA catholic religion came up all the time in the 70's, Catholics were scum and I'm catholic

Tw1nsetAndPearls · 10/08/2017 20:08

When Christians were committing acts of terrorism in the UK, no-one but no-one mentioned their religion

As someone who was raised in a RC Irish family with an obviously Irish surname I can tell you that lots of people mentioned their religion. I grew up behind a building that was used by the government during the troubles - in England. When police would do security checks they would note our surname and we would often be searched .

Gentlygrowingoldermale · 10/08/2017 20:19

I suggest the words used were Catholic and Protestant, not Christian.

Agree it's not relevant in this context.

lalalalyra · 10/08/2017 20:20

It might not be popular to say so, but I also think women are a part of the problem as well.

Not in terms of committing violence against other women, but part of the problem is the acceptance other women have in men's behaviour.

How many times do we see women standing by rapists? Wives, sisters etc. The campaign against one high profile rape victim was co-ordinated by the rapist's sister iirc.
Women, imo, are particularly bad at "slut shaming" other women.
Even down to things like women fully accepting their partner not bothering to pay toward their children.

My brother is a nasty, cruel bully. He has done something horrible to me (a culmination of a number of events). His biggest apologist is his wife. She's the loudest one shouting about how stressed he is and how nice he is. Now I don't know that he'd have been any different without her backing, but his life would certainly be less fucking cushy if it wasn't acceptable to her for him to be like that.

Men are the problem. Men aren't the only answer to the problem. Women also play their part.

I also think mothers play a huge part. The way some women allow their sons to speak to them is appalling. I know someone who regularly rants and raves about the way men treat women - except fucking woe betide any girlfriend who suggests her prescious son gets off his arse and/or treats said gf with a modicum of respect. Her son is one of the men she rants about and she helped make him that way.

It needs to be made socially unacceptable to be one of those men. And we can't rely solely on men to make it so. So we also have to not be one of those women who excuses their husband/brother/son imo.

DamnDeDoubtanceIsSpartacus · 10/08/2017 20:24

That's right lala, so many women uphold the sexist society we live in and protect the male at all cost. It's a way of ingratiating themselves and earning male approval. To point out male violence is asking for trouble and going against the way our society is set up. That's why women who do are shouted down, ridiculed and often threatened.

Lloyd45 · 10/08/2017 20:26

I agree lala but some cultures have brain washed women so much they think boys and men are god.

DamnDeDoubtanceIsSpartacus · 10/08/2017 20:29

Look at all the girls who are killed just because they are female. The world teaches us that women only have the value that men tell them they have.

lalalalyra · 10/08/2017 20:30

You don't necessarily have to shout out about it though Damn.

Do I understand why my mother didn't speak out against my violent and abusive father? Partly.

Do I understand why someone allows their 7/8/9 year old male child to act like a domineering man in their house because they happen to have a penis? No.

Do I understand why some women laugh off their son or daughter slut shaming another teenager? No.

I'm not saying it's down to women to fix it entirely, not at all. I do however think there is a part to play. Everyone has a part to play - my DH has a part to play in shutting down some of the previously acceptable sexist bullshit in his workplace, I have a part to play, everyone does. If it's just left then nothing will ever change.

lalalalyra · 10/08/2017 20:31

@lloyd That's true. I have no idea how that is countered, certainly not in the short term. It's not just a cultural thing though. Many women see the men in their lives, especially their sons, as god like.

lalalalyra · 10/08/2017 20:35

I'm probably not explaining myself very well.

I'm meaning more in the little things as well. Like, one of my 14yo DD's is currently grounded for a comment made about another girl. I won't stand for slut-shaming. She doesn't actually think bad of the girl for her sexual activity - it's just socially acceptable between teens to use something like that to attack each other. The mother of her male best friend thinks my stance is ridiculous. If that was my son I'd have come down on him like a tonne of bricks, like I have DD.

We don't have the power to change everything ourselves in one go, but we do have the chance to make an impact on our kids.

coconuttella · 10/08/2017 20:39

I suggest the words used were Catholic and Protestant, not Christian. Agree it's not relevant in this context.

A complete aside, but Islamic terrorism is generally to promote their religion, whereas in the Troubles, the terrorism was a result of two different communities that wouldn't/couldn't co-exist, with one side happening to be Catholic, and the other happening to be Protestant.... very different.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 10/08/2017 20:52

I think you're explaining it very well, lyra, and you're right; this is a community problem and resolving needs everyone to play their part if a solution is ever going to be found

That said, it's not going to be easy for women to contribute if they're from a culture where their views count for little, especially if there's a reluctance - a fear, even - about speaking out because criticising men risks them being ostracised by their community

MiddleEnglandLives · 10/08/2017 20:57

Perhaps the op missed threads like

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2992516-To-be-enraged-there-is-no-outcry-over-the-scale-of-violence-against-women-and-girls?

and

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2756721-to-think-most-women-have-been-victims-of-sexual-assault-has-anyone-not?pg=1

I agree with pp's that say male violence has been going on forever, but at the moment we can actually hold some of them to account for it. It simply never came out in the past. I was one of the fools who tried to report a sexual assault to the police in the early 90s and automatically got called a liar (always regretted either reporting it, or not chasing a complaint through for the way I was treated); I'd not bothered reporting the numerous problems I'd had before then as it simply wasn't worth the trauma of being assumed to be lying or asking for it. Policemen are men: you don't have to bring racism into it to understand why sexual crimes were so prevalent and so little prosecuted. Women's bodies were public property.

Unfortunately even as we now get to the point where we can begin to talk about just how common it is, we get a backlash from decent men who don't want to be tarred with that brush, abusive men who want the patriarchy to contnue and women back out of the public sphere, political and economic interests that want the same... and the occasional woman who, like a poster on the feminis boards recently, could not stand the idea that victims of male violence would dare to be worried about her sons if they were out alone together on a dark street.