Are you a feminist?

[NoLoveofMine]

Yes or no...

If a woman lies about being on the pill in order to trick a man into consenting to sex then yes that is just as bad as a man removing a condom

That reasoning doesn't make any sense to me because the potential physical consequences for the two situations are much more serious for the female than the male.

@treacle

So you are also supporting having sex with people without their consent?

Mum NO ONE is supporting this. Are you seeing words that aren't there?!

Do people agree that the consequences for a woman of a man secretly removing a condom are more severe than the consequences for a man of a woman secretly not taking the pill?

I have not in any way said that I agree that it is ok to have sex with someone without their consent.

Could you explain what it was that I said that made you think that I said it was ok?

I don't think mum can see any difference between a man deliberately penetrating a woman to get her pregnant against her will and a woman allowing a man to penetrate her to get pregnant, with him assuming there is a low risk.

I agree with you about the choice thing pongo . I wouldn't want to take choice away from anyone, but just to say " I'm a feminist because I chose this doesn't make those choices feminist.
Cool, you chose it, and you can be a feminist making a choice, but your personal choices can be pro feminist or...not.

It's almost as if mumof56 has come on here with the intent of derailing an informative discussion...

Im on my phone and sorry lost who said this :
the wider (Western) society accepts that women should be granted equality of opportunity and status with men.
My question is - granted by who? If somebody is granting equality, we don't have it surely?

"So you are also supporting having sex with people without their consent?"

It's just wierd that you're saying this!

In answer to the OP, yes I'm a feminist. I'm also terribly nice, patient, friendly and loving. Not a man hater, at all

I shave my legs. Because I think it looks nice. I don't think it looks nice on a man. That's how I know it's not a feminist choice. It's not intrinsically nice at all. Because on a man it would be creepy and odd.

I also know that my great grandmother wouldn't have dreamt of shaving her legs, and no-one thought her legs were weird. (And I'm not saying she didn't live in a far more sexist society than I do, just that gender stereotypes change over time).

@Cherry, one is only not rape because in UK law rape is penetration with a penis, therefore technically the woman cannot rape. However, across the West there are different legal definitions of rape where a rapist isn't exclusively a man. In this case I think the woman is a rapist.

*But I think it boils down to if a man is having sex with a woman and she may or may not be on contraception or he may or may not know, if he's not happy with that level of risk, he can wear a condom. He still has an option. He can always take responsibility, should he wish. Independently of her.

Whereas if a man took a condom off at the last minute, the woman has no further options*

YES

in essence she is a rapist

No. She isn't. Rape requires penetration by a penis.

@treaclesoda"I have not in any way said that I agree that it is ok to have sex with someone without their consent. confused"

Is just the reasoning behind saying both are as bad as each other you disagree with then? Because in both instances one person hasn't consented...

phoney I suggest you read the previous posts which address this issue as to why they're very different.

Ok mumof56 I'm going to disengage with you now. Because either your a massive goady fucker (in which case it wouldn't be fair to me to carry on) or you have a condition which means you don't have basic comprehension skills (in which case it wouldn't be fair to you to carry on).

Either way you need to acquaint yourself with why sexual consent is different to saying you will carry out a simple (non-sexual) task.

These threads usually go the same way. Droves of uneducated people falling over themselves to say we don't need feminism and trying to use hypothetical situations to make women look like the enemy, whilst ignoring the actual facts, and sometimes making their own up.

It always brings to light surprising views - like people who don't see rape as any worse than lying - and only works to reinforce the reasons why I am, and always will be, a feminist, and why I will raise my son and daughter to also be feminists.

@Datun

Men shouldn't trust women and should always work off the assumption they are liars.

Really?

What choices does your feminism seek to deny women?

Did you read my post?

Forensically drilling down in to the detail over the semantics and the word consent is pointless. If a woman tells a man she's on the pill and she lies, he can still choose not to have sex with her. Or wear a condom. He is entirely independent of her actions, if he wants to be. A man cannot be forced to impregnate a woman. No man can. (Unless she's got abnormal strength.)

Taking a condom off at the last minute, unbeknownst to the woman, is literally forcing her to be potentially pregnant.

Furthermore, the woman is carrying all the risk, in both scenarios.

If he ends up financially responsible for a child he didn't want, he had the option to avoid that. It's also not the same outcome as the woman going through pregnancy and risking her life.

Mumof56

No, they can accept responsibility for their own infertility. Each and every time.

*fertility

I'm also terribly nice, patient, friendly and loving.

As well as being one of the many feminists on here who have been excellent support and helped me a great deal!

@Cherry,

I have read the whole thread and I don't agree with your reasoning.

In UK law a woman cannot rape a man.

Personally I think this is outdated. The recent trend has been to encourage women, quite rightly, to define rape as any act of non-consentual sex. This includes a man removing a condom during otherwise consentual sex.

Following this logic it is perfectly rational go argue that a woman can rape a man too, by coercing consent from a man.

Hope that helps

It depends on your definition of feminism. I am pretty sure it means different things to different people.

"Following this logic it is perfectly rational go argue that a woman can rape a man too, by coercing consent from a man."

But that is a crime that has a name-sexual assault. Non consensual penetration with a penis has potential consequences for a woman that go beyond, for example the earlier example given of penetration with a dildo. Surely rape is apractially by definition a unique crime?

Same for men too btw, being penetrated by a penis carries more risk than an object (unless it's a dangerous object, but in that case they'd add on GBH to the sexual assault charge), because of the bodily fluids