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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Are you a feminist?

999 replies

NoLoveofMine · 06/08/2017 02:03

Yes or no...

OP posts:
JacquesHammer · 07/08/2017 16:12

*If a woman lies about being on the pill there may be a pregnancy which the man may or may not want, but which he may be oblged to contribute financially to. The pregnancy will have no physical effect on the man and he can prevent this happening by using a condom.

If a man lies about using a condom there may be a pregnancy which the woman will have to deal with either by carrying a baby or by having an abortion. Both of which can have huge physical and psychological effects. She is also exposed potentially to STIs*

Absolutely Bertrand

Can anyone point me to any stats about transferring STIs in terms of if a man if infected, what is the likelihood of infecting a partner on a single occurence of unprotected sex?

Mumof56 · 07/08/2017 16:14

@cherry

It's not rape because by definition women can't rape, I thought we'd cleared that up earlier.

Here's the definition of consent for you

consent
kənˈsɛnt/
noun
noun: consent; plural noun: consents
1.
permission for something to happen or agreement to do something.

see the word agreement in that definition?

BertrandRussell · 07/08/2017 16:15

Freddy- this is the post you made about violence statistics. I would very much like to know more, please.You see carefully selected statistics. You'll also notice, when a professional from that very field explains why those exact statistics are not accurate, they'll be accused of lieing either about their role or why those statistics aren't accurate. Or even better called a handmaiden/MRA. Makes it so much fun to engage hmm

SophoclesTheFox · 07/08/2017 16:15

This thread has gone very, very odd Confused

DioneTheDiabolist · 07/08/2017 16:20

Pongo, when you say you can't condone what most of it stands for wrt liberal feminism, what is the basis for your understanding of Lib Feminist, Alison Jaguar, Wikipedia, something else?

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 07/08/2017 16:20

Right, so...

You agree that a man removing a condom in secret without the woman's knowledge is rape

You agree that not taking the pill is not rape; but is a deceit that goes against what you consented with someone else

You think the above are on par with each other. Therefore you think raping someone is no worse than lying to someone?

Do you understand the difference between sexual consent and consent in other areas of life? Such as, not taking the pill when agreed, or going fast in a car when the passenger tells you to slow down after you promised you wouldn't drive fast? Do you understand why sexual consent and bog standard consent are different?

DioneTheDiabolist · 07/08/2017 16:21

Should say "Jaggar", my phone is autocorrecting like crazy.

Mumof56 · 07/08/2017 16:23

@cherry both break consent.

What is sex without consent?

Why are you determined to justify and normalise the actions of anyone who has sex with another person without their consent?

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 07/08/2017 16:25

Why are you determined to justify and normalise the actions of anyone who has sex with another person without their consent?

Are you taking the piss now? When have I justified rape?? I'm doing the opposite, YOU are minimising rape. I'll ask again - do you understand the difference between sexual consent and bog standard consent for every day things?

JacquesHammer · 07/08/2017 16:25

Why are you determined to justify and normalise the actions of anyone who has sex with another person without their consent?

Absolutely NOBODY has done that.

What they have said is that whilst the two instances could be in some ways comparable, they are NOT equal in severity or risk.

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 07/08/2017 16:26

Unless I've misunderstood and you believe that not taking the pill = having sex with someone without their consent (spoiler alert: it's not the same)?

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 07/08/2017 16:29

If you want me to say it's bad that women don't take the pill when they say they're on the pill, then fine - it's bad. I've already said that, I believe I used the word 'deplorable'. My whole entire point is - it's not rape. Therefore, not comparable than when a man does it with a condom, which is rape

pongoismyhero · 07/08/2017 16:34

what is the basis for your understanding of Lib Feminist, Alison Jaguar, Wikipedia, something else?

All the feminism I came into contact with at uni and in early adulthood was liberal feminism.

Essentially as I see it it's "choice" feminism - I.E. the idea that things like wearing make up, shaving, pole dancing etc can all be feminist choices and empowering. Note I am NOT saying if you shave your legs you can't be a feminist. I do it myself. I don't consider it a feminist choice.

I do not think transwomen are women, I think they are men. The idea that woman is a feeling is just absurd to me.

That's why liberal feminism and I do not gel, in a nutshell.

Happy to explain more if wanted.

Mumof56 · 07/08/2017 16:36

@Jacques "What they have said is that whilst the two instances could be in some ways comparable "

No, what they actually said is they are not comparable, see quote below

CherryChasingDotMuncher Today 14:23

We've said it's not comparable with secretly removing a condom.

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 07/08/2017 16:41

Really mum?

You said -

either party lying about contraceptive use are as bad as each other

So from that I take it to mean you think someone committing rape (and lying) and someone just lying are 'as bad as each other'. Which is it?

JacquesHammer · 07/08/2017 16:43

No, what they actually said is they are not comparable, see quote below

And that's why I said "in some ways"

Mumof56 · 07/08/2017 16:44

@cherry

what is having sex without the other persons consent?

jellyfrizz · 07/08/2017 16:44

Yes, I consider myself a feminist, I don't agree with all other feminists and don't expect to, what with us being individuals with our own views and experiences and all.
I like that and learn a lot from others.

I find it very sad that there are teachers who believe that boys and girls are innately better at certain subjects because of their biology. Until recently I taught Reception and Year 1 children and although socialisation has already started girls and boys are very equal in their abilities.

I believe it is damaging for both boys and girls to say (for instance) boys are more logical and girls are better at communication. This is one of the reasons for high male suicide rates - the idea that a 'typical' man should be logical and pragmatic they shouldn't have feelings and certainly shouldn't cry about them. So wrong.

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 07/08/2017 16:45

Gah ignore my last post I didn't realise you were quoting me Confused

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 07/08/2017 16:47

what is having sex without the other persons consent?

Why do you keep asking me this?

It is rape.

However, not taking the pill when you said you would is NOT, in any way, shape or form, having sex without he other person's consent. It's simply not taking the pill when you told the other person you would.

How can you not understand that?!

Mumof56 · 07/08/2017 16:47

@Jacques

Oh, so you just added a bit to change it from "not comparable" to "not comparable in someways"

ok Hmm

Thephoneywar · 07/08/2017 16:47

If a woman lies about being on the pill in order to trick a man into consenting to sex then yes that is just as bad as a man removing a condom.

While UK law is unable to prosecute her as a rapist, in essence she is a rapist. She achieved consent via deceit.

Those arguing that it is not as bad are deluded.

Datun · 07/08/2017 16:51

There are more nuanced aspects to consent in terms of contraception etc. Quite difficult to articulate for me.

But I think it boils down to if a man is having sex with a woman and she may or may not be on contraception or he may or may not know, if he's not happy with that level of risk, he can wear a condom. He still has an option. He can always take responsibility, should he wish. Independently of her.

Whereas if a man took a condom off at the last minute, the woman has no further options.

DioneTheDiabolist · 07/08/2017 16:51

Yes, it is about choice. And the right to have that choice, be it to shave your legs, choose your elected officials, or what field to work in. What choices does your feminism seek to deny women?

BTW, liberal feminism long predates the current trans issues. There is no consensus within Lib Feminist on this issue.

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 07/08/2017 16:53

thephoney you can't be serious? You do realise one is rape and the other is not? They are not remotely comparable