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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to have said she's raising psychopaths.

568 replies

OohMavis · 05/08/2017 19:22

My friend and I have fallen out.

She has zero empathy for any type of animal or living thing other than herself and her children, basically. I find that utterly baffling and quite upsetting, and I don't think I'm unreasonable in that respect, but I might have overstepped a mark a bit by saying this, and I want some opinions.

She was here yesterday with her two children so our children could play together. They were playing in the garden, we were sitting out with them, chatting. DD came running to me, excited, saying she'd found a really big beetle, asking for me to come and see. She's 3 and obsessed with mini beasts. My friend's children overheard and came to see too. They ran ahead of me and my friend followed behind, by the time we'd arrived her son had STOMPED on this beautiful stag beetle (I think) and killed it Angry

DD was so fucking upset. Honestly, it was just such an unecessary thing to do. The kid is 7. It's inexcusable. I reacted, raised my voice a bit and said "Why did you do that?!" he just laughed and said he wanted to stand on it. I said that's a really nasty thing to do. Then bent down to see if he'd 'popped its head off'. He had, he was quite pleased with himself. His mother said nothing, I looked at her for a response and got a half-shrug.

DD was in tears by this point so I took her back to where we were sitting and friend joined me. I was comforting DD. She said, "I think they get it from me, they just don't like animals"
I replied, "well that's fine but they shouldn't kill them"
"Well it's not like it was a cat or something"
And this is where I got a bit angry and said "yes well it starts off that way doesn't it, with that attitude you're raising two psycopaths"

She was obviously offended. Sat there for twenty more minutes with a look on her face before making an excuse and leaving, awkwardly. Got a text later saying she thought I was completely out of order calling her kids psycopaths, kids step on insects and I'm overreacting. I didn't reply. She texted again telling me I'm a hypocrite since I'm not even vegetarian Hmm and she doesn't think she'll be coming again.

WIBU to mention the word psychopath. I was angry, it may have been over the top, but I still think it.

OP posts:
HotelEuphoria · 05/08/2017 20:06

YanbU. She sounds vile, my children gave never killed anything, one DS one DD, they both love animals and would even kill a wasp or moth, DS catches and frees them like me, DD screams and leaves the room and we free them.

lottiegarbanzo · 05/08/2017 20:07

Well, stag beetles are a protected species, so deliberately killing them is a criminal act. Obvs a 7yo is below the age of criminal responsibility. Their mother though, does need to understand that wildlife is not hers to destroy. That notion and legal protection is from a conservation angle not a welfare or empathy one.

I understand what you're getting at with the psychopath angle but you made a leap too far there.

I believe It is the case that psychopaths often demonstrate their lack of empathy by killing and hurting animals first and that this can be an early sign of people who will go on to show similar behaviour towards other people. But, there is a difference between 'many dangerous psychopaths start by harming animals' and 'many or most people who harm animals as children go on to become dangerous psycopaths'.

I have always understood this progression, where it does occur, to be a manifestation of something innate. The big difference here is that there is an obvious case for 'nurture not nature'. That is, that your friend's DC have learnt a disregard for bugs or anything non-mammalian from her. I don't think you can teach psychopathy.

So, you're perfectly right to express your annoyance as her DS deliberately spoiling things for your dd, your disgust at her lack of empathy for other living things and her choice to teach her DCs this idea. Also for her ignorance of the ecological importance of wildlife, threats to it and that some of it is rare, declining and legally protected.

Psychopath was going too far but, might give her food for thought. It's not a bad thing to have made her aware that you find her attitude abnormal and abhorrent.

TooGood2BeFalse · 05/08/2017 20:08

I think 'psychopath' was over the top yes, but whilst speaking to a close friend, of course your guard was down and you said what you thought.

My elder siblings (boy and girl) got in huge trouble with my parents as kids for deliberately killing ants.They are now kind, respectable loving people with no violent tendancies Grin So perhaps some children do take longer to develop empathy.

My eldest son is 5 and on the spectrum.He has empathy in bundles, to this day I have never seen him snatch, kick or hurt any child or animal. Even when his 1 year old brother is grabbing his hair, he won't retaliate or even shout at him.

So you were right to be upset, I do think it was a very cruel thing to do.But only you know your friendship and if it is worth salvaging.

PoorYorick · 05/08/2017 20:08

I think you were 100% in the right.

Pigface1 · 05/08/2017 20:08

I'm with you. The word 'psychopath' was a strong one but it wasn't entirely misplaced - after all there are many documented cases of serial killers who derived pleasure from killing insects in childhood, before progressing to cruelty to animals, and so on.

Also I think that banging on about vegetarianism/veganism misses part of the point - even if you don't think insects merit respect, humans certainly do and he demonstrated no respect or empathy for your DD's feelings (in fact quite the opposite) and he should have been disciplined for that.

Silverthorn · 05/08/2017 20:08

Yanbu.
Stag beetles are beautiful and protected. I wonder if she is the type to let her kids harrass sheep and the petting zoo animals too.
I have 2 boys. The 16mo tries to squash or eat the insects his 3yo brother finds but we teach him not to. I teach my 2 to be quiet and calm around animals.
I think the reactive way you spoke about it wouldn't have gone down well but its done now.

AtomHeart · 05/08/2017 20:09

I do think the mother should have corrected him - just that your reaction is OTT

Original poster
OohMavis · 05/08/2017 20:11

What do you think would have been a proportionate response, Atom?

OP posts:
DistanceCall · 05/08/2017 20:11

The point is not that the child stepped on a beetle - every child does that at some point. The problem is her mother's cavalier attitude towards her child's cruelty.

To be honest, she sound like someone you're well rid of, OP.

youarenotkiddingme · 05/08/2017 20:12

Kids step on insects.

7yo still do nasty things without the intent to be horrid but they haven't always developed the empathy skills at this point to think through their actions.

Your friend though should have intervened and told him.

Your comment was harsh but actually not wrong in context.

HeyRoly · 05/08/2017 20:12

As a parent I would never condone the casual killing of insects either, but I think you were a little OTT and it shows that you actually don't like her very much. So, y'know, there's no need to maintain a friendship with someone who rubs you up the wrong way.

StaplesCorner · 05/08/2017 20:12

OP stop engaging with this. You were in the right, do you seriously want to see this woman again?

ringle · 05/08/2017 20:13

You should apologise for using the psychopath word (but not for anything else).

PoorYorick · 05/08/2017 20:14

I don't think 'psychopath' is too strong a word for wanting to kill a harmless living creature, and relishing in how gorily you killed it. Especially when you were also motivated by the fact someone else was admiring it.

Even if it is, it's clearly a bit of rhetoric and it doesn't matter if it's not literally correct. I've called people morons and imbeciles without first checking whether their IQs were indeed respectively 51-70 or 26-50.

DistanceCall · 05/08/2017 20:17

Sustained cruelty to animals is a classic sign of psychopathy. The OP was not off the mark.

(That doesn't mean that the child is a potential psychopath. But the argument would be similar if the child had been lighting a fire, the mother shrugged it off, and the OP told her that she's raising an arsonist).

PoorYorick · 05/08/2017 20:17

However, a little boy stamping on an insect is not even close to stunning a cow with an electric bolt, hanging it upside down, slitting its throat and then eating it.

I'm veggie too, nearly vegan, and agree with you on the ethics, or lack of, meat eating. But I do see a difference between killing an animal for consumption, and killing it because you enjoy killing it, and will even relish how gory it was. It's why I'm angrier about hunting than meat farming, though I don't condone either.

lottiegarbanzo · 05/08/2017 20:17

Well, stag beetles are a protected species, so deliberately killing them is a criminal act. Obvs a 7yo is below the age of criminal responsibility. Their mother though, does need to understand that wildlife is not hers to destroy. That notion and legal protection is from a conservation angle not a welfare or empathy one.

I understand what you're getting at with the psychopath angle but you made a leap too far there.

I believe It is the case that psychopaths often demonstrate their lack of empathy by killing and hurting animals first and that this can be an early sign of people who will go on to show similar behaviour towards other people. But, there is a difference between 'many dangerous psychopaths start by harming animals' and 'many or most people who harm animals as children go on to become dangerous psycopaths'.

I have always understood this progression, where it does occur, to be a manifestation of something innate. The big difference here is that there is an obvious case for 'nurture not nature'. That is, that your friend's DC have learnt a disregard for bugs or anything non-mammalian from her. I don't think you can teach psychopathy.

So, you're perfectly right to express your annoyance as her DS deliberately spoiling things for your dd, your disgust at her lack of empathy for other living things and her choice to teach her DCs this idea. Also for her ignorance of the ecological importance of wildlife, threats to it and that some of it is rare, declining and legally protected.

Psychopath was going too far but, might give her food for thought. It's not a bad thing to have made her aware that you find her attitude abnormal and abhorrent.

ringle · 05/08/2017 20:17

Wrt what you should have said, I can think of loads of better things but only with the benefit of hindsight IYSWIM.

Maelstrop · 05/08/2017 20:18

I think using the word psychopath was way over the top. I would have told her how upset I was and that she shouldn't let her child do that, but psycho was harsh.

ByTheSea · 05/08/2017 20:18

I have raised a psychopath (and three who are not psychopaths but have all suffered enormous harm being his sibling) and yes he did things like this when he was young and I did lots about it in terms of modelling empathetic behaviour, talking, sanctions, therapeutic parenting, etc. On this thread and elsewhere people always blame the parent although I agree with the OP that the child's behaviour in this case was very wrong and her friend should not be so nonchalant about it.

mummymummums · 05/08/2017 20:23

YANBU - psychopath was appropriate but I think
It's your friend it applies to. She is simply raising them like herself and in not batting an eyelid when her DS kills a stag beetle deliberately she is showing her true colours.
I can't believe she let her DC watch the cat kill and eat a pigeon for an hour! Even if it was too late for the pigeon, to let her boys watch????? FFS.
You are so well rid. Ignore her and if she contacts you again just tell her you can't be friends with someone who doesn't correct her children when they are blatantly cruel to creatures and deliberately upsetting your DC.
Who knows where her 'parenting ' will lead the boys - hopefully they'll get nicer.

paxillin · 05/08/2017 20:23

Why would you want her and her kids over again? I'm sure your DD would hate having this boy back in the garden.

PelorusJack · 05/08/2017 20:24

The kid and his Mum were out of order but it's not ok to call a child of 7 a psychopath. If you are using it as an insult is is NOT ok and if you are using it because you think it's true it's still NOT ok.

backwardpossom · 05/08/2017 20:25

He didn't just step on a bug, he stamped on a beetle in its natural environment (not in the house) not because he was scared of it or careless but possibly because another child was excited about it and because he wanted to see and enjoy the mutilation he had caused to it. Then he showed no remorse or any understanding that it was not a good thing to do.

All of this. I cannot believe your 'friend' didn't tell him off. YANBU, OP.

Gazelda · 05/08/2017 20:25

Was there any possibility that any of the children overhear you referring to psychopaths?