To think a double masectomy for a 13 yr old girl is child abuse

[AssignedMentalAtBirth]

twitter.com/peepartist/status/890693730126188544

All the adults in this girl's life have failed her.

It's truly sickening

This is Texas, coming here soon

SantaHelena

They are heavy on the vetting. You might not even pass if you don't have a decent posting history.

I agree, the fact that we have to talk about this in secret is one of the most worrying aspect. Lots of people are joining with a fake Facebook account - after they have been vetted.

Random the link to the tweet is here: twitter.com/ZJemptv/status/594149389880336385
Please tell me what context I have missed in that statement. I don't care what his explanation was or what mental gymnastics were taken to justify that reprehensible comment. and yes I read the piece you link to and it is pure bullshit.
Because if anyone really thinks that men would not/do not disguise themselves in order to attack or get away with attacking women then maybe you should do a bit more research because there is currently a man in Canada who has been convicted or murdering prostitutes back in the nineties. One of the reasons that he evaded capture was because he transitioned and in Canada once you say you're a women you are the police were not looking for a women they were looking for a man (evidence of the harm self cert does) not only wqas he not caught for 20 odd years but because he has transitioned he gets to go to a women's prison to be housed with well a lot of prostitutes (it must be like lucky dip for him huh) because fuck the safety of vulnerable women. What matters here is that we validate a mans feelings even if that man has a taste for murdering women.
I think you need to get your head out of the sand.

Lesbians do not have sex with penises.

I'm going to get flamed for this.

There are two very separate issues:

1. people who are so depressed and suicidal by being in the wrong body that they transition (or wish to) M-F or F-M

2. perverted men who say they are female in order to get into female spaces, assault females and try to have sex with lesbians.

These people are worlds apart. I am pretty horrified by the transphobia allowed on here, its jaw dropping. But it seems to be the party line and many mumsnetters fall into line. One day it could lead to MN being closed for horrific intolerance and bigotry. It's like racism it's so bad.

I wonder if many know anyone transgender. I do. They (age 30) are tormented every day by the fact that they are in the wrong body (they haven't transitioned). They cannot get on with their life or have a relationship because they are so tormented.

I am not saying that 13yos generally should have surgery. I don't even know re puberty blockers. It is an absolute minefield. But puberty blockers for some have prevented those people from killing themselves. And most of us are not in a position of experience here. We should allow these people to meet with doctors and other professionals and decide the way forwards - it's not to do with us.

Regarding the toilets and safe spaces issues, everywhere there should be 3 toilets male, female and unisex. Fine to say no penises in the female toilets to protect us from the perverted men pretending to be transgender. Pre op M-F could use unisex along with anyone else who wanted to (probably lots of women who don't want to queue) and lots of parents who have opposite sex children who they can't take into their allocated bathroom. Eg woman and 9yo boy.

Random
Zinnia Jones is not a credible source unless you are wanting to back up AGYP theory amongst older male transitioners. I won't link to their twitter porn account as it is obscene.

I do wonder what happens when all the AGPs and crossdressers get their own way and are allowed to be what was a scintillating behind doors kink and now they get all giddy with the ability to be this all the time...will they get bored when it isn't so shocking? Because it's been normalised?

They will not get bored with exposing themselves in front of women, assaulting women, et cetera.
Women will not stop being uncomfortable with males in their spaces, so the shock value of that will remain.

Perhaps those for whom it is about being perceived as female by men will get bored after a while, when men wisen up and learn to tell them part from actual women.

But as I am by now convinced it is all about the invasion of women's spaces, I doubt they'll get bored.

The ones who will regret their actions are the women who thought themselves better than other women and transed in the hopes they'd be awareded male privilege.
When all women have transed at the very least to agender, and patriarchal oppression is still the same (because of course it will be) and they have grown older and have children, they'll curse the fact that they themselves happily signed away the words with which they could describe the fact that their bepenised partner doesn't do an equal share of housework and childcare.

That is horrific. I didn't even know this happened. Oh, I know that teens can get their puberty arrested with hormone treatment (which they can stop if he get want to), but after a lot of counselling, etc., but to have top half surgery at 13 is beyond the pale.
My DD has never been girly but she has never wanted to be a boy either thankfully! I used to worry when she was younger as she was even more non-girly then, but since puberty she has embraced her gender a bit more (puberty can def change, plus I know past 'tomboys' - for want of a better word - who came out as gay - maybe if they were forced into gendered roles they would've wanted to transition). It's so complicated, but I do believe (imho) that only a small percentage of people are truly 'born in the wrong body'.

I wonder if many know anyone transgender. I do

Yes, several. And about half of them would have self identified as cross dressers or drag acts 10 years ago. I also know 2 who just want to get on with their lives as "themselves" . I do not agree that the latter are the vast majority OR the loudest voice in TRA today! In fact, I think they are being let down by the trans movement in its current form.

Thank you Datun. Do you mean MN posting history or Facebook posting history?
TA is mind boggling. It is so very Orwellian so much so that I feel it's not a grass root movement at all but something else, more sinister.

"will they get bored when it isn't so shocking? Because it's been normalised?"
How does paedophilia tie in with any of this if at all?

SantaHelena

I'm not sure, but I think your mumsnet history if you have one, if not, a Facebook history.

The ones who will regret their actions are the women who thought themselves better than other women and transed in the hopes they'd be awareded male privilege.
When all women have transed at the very least to agender, and patriarchal oppression is still the same

FTM are already being made invisible by TRAs, cries of transexclusion in situations that already do include FTM are proof of that!

There's some really bad science behind transgenderism.

If you're intersex, you're born physically different.
Transgenderism is (at most serious) a psychological issue. It needs to be dealt with good mental therapy.

I was just reading this last night, it's very interesting. www.transgendertrend.com/dilemma-of-teachers/

@random79 nothing I said was an attack on transpeople. Unless you agree that misgendering of transpeople is 'literal violence' while misgendering of non-transpeople (as 'cis') is perfectly acceptable. A fair proportion of the people acting like all of this is ok are not LGBT; criticising transactivism is not the same as hating transpeople.

Lies are spread through the community. Children are denied access to mental health services. Parents are denied support unless they agree to trans their children medically. Pointing that out isn't hating transpeople, it is highlighting a fundamental issue with the direction that transactivism is going, being supported by both transpeople and non-trans people. It is damaging the very people it should be protecting.

I find it difficult to imagine having a serious and critical discussion about an ideology whilst policing my language so it fits in with their acceptability criteria at the same time. Even saying 'they' is considered transphobic and misgendering now. There's no winning unless you agree with the ideology or at least discuss things on TRA terms.

Pointing out that AGP is a very real thing is not saying transpeople are all perverts. Some are, some absolutely are not and are just trying to get through life, but they are the ones being totally screwed by all of this.

Some transpeople are lovely, others are total wankers. That isn't to do with the fact they are trans, it's just because they are human and in any event is largely irrelevant. My problem is with TRAs and those (trans or not) that go along with whatever they are spouting, not transpeople as a group, and I think the majority of the people on these threads would agree with that sentiment.

Even the fact I keep typing 'not trans' is frustrating because I should just be able to type women/men but can't for fear of being misunderstood. That shift in language has happened in a scarily short period of time and it will keep happening unless people stand against it.

eleven "I wonder if many know anyone transgender."

Well I know a transsexual. Having medical treatment to physically change sex = transsexual.

Transgender, according to the legal definition is...um....I'm not sure.

My mum is from another country (suffice to say not a very liberal one) and nearly 80. Her feeling is the same as mine - there is no problem whatsoever with an adult transsexual. But no one seems to know what transgender is or means, and if it means that 13 year olds have drastic medical treatment or that people with penises are allowed in women's spaces, something has gone very wrong.

That's why I get confused when people shout transphobia. No problem with transsexuals at all. I've said it 100 times but I might as well say it again - I can understand being accused of being anti-male but I cannot understand being accused of being anti-trans.

Vestalvirgin meeting someone on the internet isn't the same as knowing someone irl. Referring to a human being as "it" is pretty rotten as well, even if that person is violent and hateful.

The transmen seemed to be finding their allys with gay and lesbian sections

I think any alliance between TA and LGB people will be short-lived.

It is, after all, not a long stretch from 'I was an XY man but am now really a woman' to 'You only think you are a man who loves other men, you are really a woman like me'.

This has already started to happen.

FTM are already being made invisible by TRAs, cries of transexclusion in situations that already do include FTM are proof of that!

Indeed. Radical feminists have never excluded transmen from anything whatsoever.

Trans identified females will wake up to the reality when there aren't any "ciswomen" left, I think.

That's when all masks will fall, and the transmen in the office will be told to go make coffee and empty the dishwasher.

And they won't have the words do describe what is happening.

"Referring to a human being as "it" is pretty rotten as well, even if that person is violent and hateful."

And there you have it.

Language you think is 'rotten 'is worse than violence. Where the fuck do you people go to school? What would you call a rapist or a murderer then if they were transgender. Would calling them 'he' be worse then the actual rape or murder? It would according to this logic. Apply some reason to your thought. FFS

Cutting off healthy tissue in an irreversible way at 13 is child abuse, end of story. It's dreadful.

At university I had a male friend who was fairly effeminate and 'girly'. Most people assumed (wrongly) that he was gay. In fact for most of university he was in love with a friend of mine (a woman) - it was unrequited. We had a really interesting discussion one night where we got a bit drunk tipsy, stayed up really late and he told me how frustrating it was that everyone assumed he was gay and he wasn't just allowed to be a straight effeminate man who liked a lot of stereotypically 'feminine' pursuits. He was also pissed off that most women seemed to go for the typical 'manly' types. He went on to get married to a woman and have children. I wonder if he were at uni now if he would be aggressively targeted by the transactivists to transition.

random

Try this. It's a site called gender trender. Highly critical of the trans-movement though.

One of the reasons is that it is run by lesbians. They are infuriated by the erasure of their orientation.

They take no quarter. But what they are is one of the most thorough sites I have ever read. The woman running it Gallus Meg is a genius in unearthing information. They are educated, articulate and unbelievably informed. And they're furious.

They are showing, on this particular link, a video by Magdelen Berns Another lesbian who was thrown out of her LGBT society at university for refusing to sleep with men who think they are women.

Her videos can be seen on YouTube. She is another person who is incisive in her analysis (ignore her drawl, she always sounds slightly stoned ).

Both Gareth Meg and Magdelen Berns have suffered horrific abuse at the hands of trans-activists.

Magdelen Berns has a brain tumour. She was piled on by TRAs urging her to die.

gendertrender.wordpress.com/tag/male-lesbians/

I know a MtT - IT/gaming background, now wears a Tardis dress.

And a FtT- History of sexual abuse, was heterosexual (my DP was a partner of hers) for a bit way back), then came out as lesbian for a number of years, now a transman.

Both follow a pattern.

Oh and I joined what I thought was a Female gaming clan...have played with a few MtT.

^
Agree with what you said Assigned

I couldn't give a shit how a rapist and murderer feels on that score.

Vestalvirgin meeting someone on the internet isn't the same as knowing someone irl.

I know. If I had known that person in real life, I might be dead now.
Trust me, I am very aware of the difference.

Referring to a human being as "it" is pretty rotten as well, even if that person is violent and hateful.

That person identifies as nonbinary. "It" is the proper pronoun, therefore.