To want the other parents/nursery to do more?

[PeoniesGinandBags]

Okay so here goes...

DC goes to a lovely local nursery that I've always been happy with. Great staff, lots of activities etc. About 6 months ago another child started at the nursery - M.

We've had the usual ups and downs of nursery as children adjust, start/stop biting etc etc so I'm used to dealing with 'issues' and appreciate (being a teacher myself) that no child is perfect, two sides to every story etc.

However... M is a bloody nightmare.

On 3 occasions M has assaulted my child - yesterday getting hold of DC's hair with two hands and hitting it off the dinner table. These are not isolated cases. Two weeks ago I was collecting DC from nursery and I witnessed M casually walking over to another child, pushing them over and walking off. A week prior to that there was an incident involving M putting her hands around the neck of the same child she pushed over.

When I've spoken to nursery before about M they told me that it's 'in hand' and that 'someone was coming that day to do an observation of her'. I don't know who this would be?

To compound the issue (for me anyway) I witnessed M having a temper tantrum as Mum was collecting them from nursery. M wanted a toy that belonged to another child and M's Mum simply said to the other child, "Can you just let M have the toy for the night?" followed by lots of other attempts to 'reason' with M.

I'm sick to the back teeth of DC doing what they should, reporting things to the staff, not shouting/hitting back but to be honest enough is enough. It just seems that M is out of control. I can see there are issues for her but things seem to be escalating to an alarming degree.

Any advice? I called nursery this morning ahead of dropping DC off and said that I wanted to escalate my concerns, that we had had a bad night with DC after what had happened yesterday etc and I'm waiting to hear back from them. I have suggested (but don't know at all if this would be helpful) that I want a meeting with a senior member of staff at nursery as well as M's parents so that we can discuss strategies for a way forward (to be blunt - stop pandering to the tantrums and see the effect this is having on others). ARGH!!! I'm hopping mad but trying hard not to be unreasonable.

AIBU???

yeahokay in a sense I guess so yes. In the sense you can try different behaviour strategies with a 13yo than you could a 4yo.

DD had a fab early years senco. DS had an atrocious one. School move, DS has a lovely senco who I just wanted to put in my pocket. DD starts secondary school this September. Upon a quick conversation with her new senco. A TA has been assigned to help her with her specific disability. My only reaction was "can't believe I haven't had to fight for this".

Yabu to think m is the problem. The nursery are the problem. It's their duty to ensure m doesn't hurt anyone, regardless of the cause.

Dd's primary had a high Sen %, and more than one dc came there after leaving other settings, sometimes with quite severe behaviour issues as a result of their Sen and/or previous treatment and methods. But because the school put safeguarding methods in place, as well as adequate Sen provision there weren't any problems.

One of her best friends was excluded from several settings by halfway through ks1. Then flourished at dd's primary. And then went to the shit local secondary before surprise surprise she was apparently a problem and chucked out again. Despite the fact that outside school her behaviour is easily manageable and not severe. But yeah, blame the parents and the child, not the setting.

It's amazing that so many people seem to have decided, with very little knowledge, that this child has DSEN. How do they know? What if, after being observed by the correct professionals, it just turns out that this child is poorly behaved?

Yeah all those people who live it every day know nothing at all about the process. The observation is part of the diagnostic assessment process.

"Good" Behaviour is NOT as a result of a particular type of parenting.

"Bad" behaviour is NOT due to a lack of a particular type of parenting and a lack of discipline.

Until that penny drops with schools and other parents, SEN kids and their families are doomed.

Yeahokay - amongst other things an early years senco (and their setting) will often be dealing with a child and their family who may be at the very start of a journey of acceptance that their child has additional needs, or they may just be identifying that a child needs extra support and investigations as to why, and helping support parents in this. At this early age, there will be a necessity for setting up what sort of support a child needs, and possibly starting an echp process. They will also be dealing with a situation where funding and support will more often than not, not be in place - or won't be available.

It's irrelevant if M has SN. It will still be none of the OP's business and entirely the nursery's responsibility to ensure the safety of all the children on the premises regardless of the reason for the behaviour.

Having a child with Autism and advocating on her behalf for over 7 years now I find this thread miserable with some pretty ignorant views being offered. It's like every year I and others like me are having to constantly educate about SEN to people who really don't understand. Isn't it supposed to get better over time? I worry about the society that my daughter is going to enter when, hopefully, she becomes independent.

I'd just like to make the point that being a teacher or a SENCO does not make you an expert on child behaviour or child psychology, far from it. Schools and nurseries are communities with processes that govern and educate children, some work very well and some stink at it. Either way the success or failure of it comes down to the adults being open minded, educated, informed and caring. The less of that which exists within the education environment and staff the more ignorance exists there. That ignorance then trickles down to the children via staff language and attitudes. Hey presto, the ignorance has bred. I know this to be true because I've seen it happen first hand. We are extremely lucky that DD is now in a specialist setting with wonderful staff who have extensive professional training in a variety of disabilities, enabling them to meet the children's needs and most importantly still respect the child and helping them thrive. We are very lucky as we know there are many other children and parent's struggling with inappropriate placements, perhaps like M's parents.

Most unprofessional that this nursery manager has organised a meeting between herself, M's parents and the OP. What on earth could that achieve on behalf of both children? Absolutely nothing. It will allow OP to voice her views to M's parents and potentially cause bad feeling amongst them whilst the nursery manager does not take responsibility for keeping OPs child safe in M's presence. That is not the M's parents fault, it's down to the nursery.

Somebody made the point up thread about some children who are assessed by a professional who don't always turn out to have special needs because they are just "badly behaved". I would be very interested in the figures for that assumption because I think they would be very low. For a professional to be brought in to assess a child meetings would have already been held with people outside of teaching staff, potentially with medical staff too over a long period of time. Suspicion about what the child's difficulties may already be in mind and the observation may actually part of a diagnosis process.

My head hurts, I'm off.

@AwaywiththePixies27 the people who have little info who I was referring to were the people on this thread, not the professionals who are observing the child in school. Waits for penny to drop

@hazeyjane sounds very similar to my job in secondary?

It's irrelevant if M has SN. It will still be none of the OP's business and entirely the nursery's responsibility to ensure the safety of all the children on the premises regardless of the reason for the behaviour.

Exactly. But she's making it her business. Which is where she's being unreasonable.

OkayYeaokay. Sorry. The SENCO I work with just sounds very different to the tone of your post.

YANBU to expect to your child to be kept safe. The nursery have a duty of care to the children they work at. Children should not be being assaulted on a regular basis. Simple.

You would BU if you wanted the nursery to explain what's going on with M. The child sounds like they have additional needs and they're going through correct procedures. It's not for them to discuss with you.

But, I do take your point that M's mother going up to another child and essentially demanding that a child gives M a toy for the night isn't really on. I'd be annoyed if another parent felt they'd automatically take a toy from my child because theirs wants it.

"But, I do take your point that M's mother going up to another child and essentially demanding that a child gives M a toy for the night isn't really on. I'd be annoyed if another parent felt they'd automatically take a toy from my child because theirs wants it."

Well, one of two things might be going on in this scenario:

1. the mother is an insufferable arse and thinks her child is entitled to everything he glances at

Or

2. the mother knows that this is likely to trigger some intractable behaviour.

On the balance of probabilities I'd go with 2.

@hazeyjane I hope my post didn't come across as negative. When I did the job, my intention was always to help the child with DSEN and their families: in secondary we often dealt with cases where either a) parents/ care givers had been pushing for a diagnosis for years and were literally at the end of their tether or b) additional needs arising from mental health issues became apparent, as they often do during puberty.

However, we worked on the basis of giving the child the 'tools to do the job' and enabling them to integrate/ flourish in our particular environment. Sometimes, even given this additional support, behaviour would be so extreme: trying to stab someone's eye out with a pencil and trying to throw themselves over the school balcony are just two I dealt with personally, that mainstream education was clearly not right for that child because they were a danger to themselves or others. This may well be the case for the child discussed in the OP. On the other side of the coin, I've also invited the ed psych in on more than one occasion to observe a child displaying extreme behaviour at school and at home, in conjunction with referrals to EWMHS and Family Solutions, to be told that actually, there were no DSENs found and this behaviour was due to having zero boundaries or sanctions at home.

Runninglikeamummy
I don't think it's possible to comment on which it would be, but I agree that 2 is most likely.

At the end of the day the other children are already being assaulted by M and his challenging behaviour is already probably having a significant effect on the learning environment without having adults remove toys from the other children again because that's what M wants.

There are procedures to follow and it sounds like the nursery are starting that process, but the solution from what I hear my friends in SEND is not just to give in, give in, give in. It's to develop a range of strategies that work for the child, not allowing the child to be violent to others and get their own way at the expense of other children (which is what seems to currently be happening).

Your friends in SEND aren't having to deal with the child forever and ever and ever. You have to pick your battles and an upset that can seem insignificant to an observer can be a massive deal to the child. It isn't a matter of "giving in" because that makes SEN issues appear to be a choice. one of my relatives gave out to me for "giving in" over my child's very restricted foods. I could make one of my kids sit there and eat and they would eventually eat, but the other wouldn't, AND it would set them up for a day or so of frantic drumming and self harming.

It's not your fault but what you've just written is the judgement that SEN parents deal with 24/7. It looks like we are dickheads who capitulate constantly for an easy life. Actually, we are just staying afloat.

The child may have SN, they may not have, but its not op business to stick her ore in somebody else business, yes the nursery should not have scheduled the meeting with op and the parents, what good is it going to do? The nursery should be dealing with this and making sure that op and other people's children are safe, if they cannot do so, they have to broach it with the parents, that the sitting may not be right for their child.

This is all very odd...

This must be a private nursery - its the summer holidays - state schools are all closed now until september.

both the children i think have been said to be 4 - so will be off to school come september....

just ride it out for the summer.....

Why any parent would agree to meeting with OP i would never know - unless private nursery has said they must or lost their place?

As a parent of a child with SEN I think (if at all true) that no good can come of this meeting....I hope other parents walk in, say mind your own business, and walk back out!

Yabu.

I cannot believe you're a teacher, OP. Not with the ignorance you're displaying on this thread.

running
That's not how it's meant.

I meant it does sound in this situation like one child is affecting the whole environment because other children can't attend without being assaulted. Special needs or not, other children being injured is not ok.

What I'm saying is that based on what friends in SEND tell me (I ask them for advice when I have children with send needs in mainstream) is that giving in all the time isn't the way and developing strategies is. Eg. I have a child this year who is difficult about seating arrangements. Either, I could be an arse and sit them somewhere I know they don't want. Or, I can sit them somewhere I know is going to be comfortable for them and then at least they have a shot at accessing the learning. The 2nd option may seem like giving in, but it's just a strategy that reduces the emotional load on that child.

But that doesn't mean they can act however they like in my room. If their behaviour is such that their kwn strategies or my teaching strategies arent working and other children and the learning are badly affected then I send them to work in our SEN Base.

What I wouldn't do is turn to another child and say 'Sarah wants your pencil case so you should give it to her and then we'll work out how to get it back later' (which is essentially what the parent in this situation has done).

OK I hear you MaisyPops. However we don't know what was actually going on for the child. The toy concerned might have been something that was of particular interest to the child, or, a distraction away from something else. As I said what can look like giving in, may well be a strategy which isn't obvious.

I know running. It's far too difficult to say as we don't have the whole picture.

I don't think the nursery are doing as well as they could be regarding keeping other children safe. Yes, the visitor was probably an EdPsyc but they still have a duty of care to ensure other children aren't injured and it sounds like they've got the ball rolling on assessment but just in time for school sort of not our problem soon.