To want the other parents/nursery to do more?

[PeoniesGinandBags]

Okay so here goes...

DC goes to a lovely local nursery that I've always been happy with. Great staff, lots of activities etc. About 6 months ago another child started at the nursery - M.

We've had the usual ups and downs of nursery as children adjust, start/stop biting etc etc so I'm used to dealing with 'issues' and appreciate (being a teacher myself) that no child is perfect, two sides to every story etc.

However... M is a bloody nightmare.

On 3 occasions M has assaulted my child - yesterday getting hold of DC's hair with two hands and hitting it off the dinner table. These are not isolated cases. Two weeks ago I was collecting DC from nursery and I witnessed M casually walking over to another child, pushing them over and walking off. A week prior to that there was an incident involving M putting her hands around the neck of the same child she pushed over.

When I've spoken to nursery before about M they told me that it's 'in hand' and that 'someone was coming that day to do an observation of her'. I don't know who this would be?

To compound the issue (for me anyway) I witnessed M having a temper tantrum as Mum was collecting them from nursery. M wanted a toy that belonged to another child and M's Mum simply said to the other child, "Can you just let M have the toy for the night?" followed by lots of other attempts to 'reason' with M.

I'm sick to the back teeth of DC doing what they should, reporting things to the staff, not shouting/hitting back but to be honest enough is enough. It just seems that M is out of control. I can see there are issues for her but things seem to be escalating to an alarming degree.

Any advice? I called nursery this morning ahead of dropping DC off and said that I wanted to escalate my concerns, that we had had a bad night with DC after what had happened yesterday etc and I'm waiting to hear back from them. I have suggested (but don't know at all if this would be helpful) that I want a meeting with a senior member of staff at nursery as well as M's parents so that we can discuss strategies for a way forward (to be blunt - stop pandering to the tantrums and see the effect this is having on others). ARGH!!! I'm hopping mad but trying hard not to be unreasonable.

AIBU???

Agree, they're letting everyone down.

I am also depressed reading this. We have a 3.5 year old at nursery and we are going through the process for an ASD diagnosis. His behaviour towards other children has been more to ignore them than anything else but I totally empathise with friends I know whose children display very challenging behaviour and they are at their wits end, having tried several strategies - for children who are both NT or who have additional needs.

Tbh I never appreciated until this year how hard it was to parent a child with ASD or a NT child who has challenging behaviour so to everyone on this thread who is doing a magnificent job.

I feel the OP has had a hard time here and really why shouldn't she expect her child to be safe?

The thing is the nursery have a duty of care and should be keeping all the children safe. They should not be taking risks that M might strangle and bite other children repeatedly. She is 4 not a toddler anymore. I would be furious.

Yes some of the OPs suggestions for dealing with it are not appropriate but it's not her responsibility. It's the nursery's.

What the parents are doing and whether they are effective is irrelevant really because the nursery have agreed to care for this child while she is there and they are clearly failing to deal with the problem in a way which makes the other children feel safe.

Whether she is diagnosed with SN or not the nursery still ought to be putting in appropriate support if they feel 1 to 1 is needed they need to provide it.

OP how many weeks more is your DD at the nursery? Will she be going to school with M?

Yes fruit, the nursery should be supporting both children more appropriately - that is what most posters are saying. The op doesn't seem to think the nursery has done anything wrong, however.

It is mad that settings are expected to provide 1-1 support without appropriate funding.

You are absolutely NOT being unreasonable! Why should your DD have to put up with this crap?
M sounds a nightmare and nursery need to sort her out or tell her DM to find another nursery: aka "shape up or ship out".
Presumably your DD is starting school in September? Can you find a CM to have her till then?

I don't think that is the case in all early years settings? And when the funding comes it isn't enough to actually pay the wages of a full time 1-1.

Also the trouble is sometimes funding isn't awarded, but the need is still there. Or there is no established need when the child arrives, but this becomes apparent as time goes on and then it is important to build a relationship with the parents, who may need time to accept their child needing support.

llangennuth "Would you mind asking your child to be a bit less disabled? Cheers."

It could be more awkward in the playground afterwards -

I wouldn't meet the parents of a child either -

Whether the funding is there or not, childrens safety should always be the priority. So yes it might explain other stuff being overlooked until 1-1 funding is available if a member of staff has to be taken away from other duties to provide it, but there's no excuse not to provide it when a child/children are at risk. Unless of course it's the type of setting who likes to accidentally on purpose manage dc out and isn't concerned about any other dc that are also hurt in the meantime.

llang why not use the reverse logic and say all nt dc should be able to defend themselves and if they can't it is time they learned? Or is it only when sn is involved when it's reasonable to suggest all dc are capable of the same behaviour?

I feel the OP has had a hard time here and really why shouldn't she expect her child to be safe?

Nobody has suggested otherwise.

She was given a hard time for her comments such as 'just discipline the child ffs!' And commenting that 'these behaviours can be as a result of social settings'. Basically. She's had the family pegged as no-marks since the start. When she's well aware of the current assessment M is clearly undergoing. Even though the nursery shouldn't have said a thing.

A teacher, should know better.

Yes, Lurked, I completely agree, I'm not trying to make excuses for the nursery. They have failed in supporting either child.

away
I think the OP was wrong to suggest that the family should 'just discipline M' as if it's always social settings etc. That's awful.

But, and somebody else has mentioned it on here, many of us have experiences where as school staff we've gone through all the correct procedures, assessments and it turns out the child is NT.
E.g. we'd done that with one teenage student. He started to be violent towards other children and assualted a colleague when we were trying to de-escalate the situation. When we had the meeting, his mother was babying him and she told the staff (in front of him) that he can't help it, he has x y z issues (he didn't) and that really the staff shouldn't have expected him to calm down. The child was smirking ear to ear and then went on to challenge staff with 'but my mum will just get you sacked because I can't help it'.

That's not the norm. The norm in my experience is working with parents to battle the system and supporting them all the way, but not all poor behaviour is an SEND need.

Of course its not the norm. Inknow because a few of my earlier posts I talked about the kids making my DDs life hell who had problems at home/friendship problems/any other excuse. My point is I was still co-operative throughout.

Just because one turned out to be NT doesn't mean M will. Many of us SENs parents have been told for years our DCs were NT when we knew all along they weren't. She got flack for her attitude, not because she wants to keep her DD safe.

If your child is wetting the bed in fear, take them out of there.

If you are a teacher, you will be home for the summer now. If not, find a summer camp, ask relatives and friends. If you have ever taught, you will know that nothing can really be done. This child will hurt yours until they leave - lack of funding, of knowledge, of ability to stop them. Some settings do manage issues like this far better (my children's preschool for one) but the setting your child is in clearly doesn't have a clue how to keep the other children safe.

OP FWIW I agree with you .

I'm a mental health nurse so I'm fully aware of intellectual disabilities .

But your right not everything can be reduced to a set of symptoms- and sadly not all parents are on board in managing challenging behaviours. Children with SEN still need limits and boundaries for behaviour.

Iv been in your situation - my child was repeatedly bitten ( to the point of needing out of hours doctor ).

The nursery failed to keep my child safe time after time.

So I reported them to Ofsted who did a spot check and then I removed my child from the nursery.

Just pull your child out of that nursery OP.

You and your child have a right for him to be psychologically and physically safe ... and that isn't happening .

When this happened to my son it affected him for years to come , don't let this be your child .

But your right not everything can be reduced to a set of symptoms- and sadly not all parents are on board in managing challenging behaviours. Children with SEN still need limits and boundaries for behaviour.

And you don't think the nursery are doing this? The fact they've brought someone in to do observations shows they are not sitting on their arse.
The parents are meeting with the OP and the nursery. Which part of that makes you think the parents aren't on board?...

Just want to ask you a question NoMud. As you're a mental health nurse. If you suspect a patient has ASD or ADHD, do you refer them on to somewhere else?

No zzzz ofsted had the desired result .

As my DH is a police officer himself he knew it wasn't the appropriate route.

Care givers have a duty of care to all the children they look after ... Regardless of whether the aggressor has SEN. Nurseries must be safeguarding the other children from harm - it really isn't that difficult . At my children's school children with SEN and NT children live very happily alongside each other , because of the work that staff put in to meet the needs of all children , to ensure they feel psychologically and physically safe and for them to thrive.