To want the other parents/nursery to do more?

[PeoniesGinandBags]

Okay so here goes...

DC goes to a lovely local nursery that I've always been happy with. Great staff, lots of activities etc. About 6 months ago another child started at the nursery - M.

We've had the usual ups and downs of nursery as children adjust, start/stop biting etc etc so I'm used to dealing with 'issues' and appreciate (being a teacher myself) that no child is perfect, two sides to every story etc.

However... M is a bloody nightmare.

On 3 occasions M has assaulted my child - yesterday getting hold of DC's hair with two hands and hitting it off the dinner table. These are not isolated cases. Two weeks ago I was collecting DC from nursery and I witnessed M casually walking over to another child, pushing them over and walking off. A week prior to that there was an incident involving M putting her hands around the neck of the same child she pushed over.

When I've spoken to nursery before about M they told me that it's 'in hand' and that 'someone was coming that day to do an observation of her'. I don't know who this would be?

To compound the issue (for me anyway) I witnessed M having a temper tantrum as Mum was collecting them from nursery. M wanted a toy that belonged to another child and M's Mum simply said to the other child, "Can you just let M have the toy for the night?" followed by lots of other attempts to 'reason' with M.

I'm sick to the back teeth of DC doing what they should, reporting things to the staff, not shouting/hitting back but to be honest enough is enough. It just seems that M is out of control. I can see there are issues for her but things seem to be escalating to an alarming degree.

Any advice? I called nursery this morning ahead of dropping DC off and said that I wanted to escalate my concerns, that we had had a bad night with DC after what had happened yesterday etc and I'm waiting to hear back from them. I have suggested (but don't know at all if this would be helpful) that I want a meeting with a senior member of staff at nursery as well as M's parents so that we can discuss strategies for a way forward (to be blunt - stop pandering to the tantrums and see the effect this is having on others). ARGH!!! I'm hopping mad but trying hard not to be unreasonable.

AIBU???

Make your concerns known and request a detailed action plan as to what is going to be done to protect your child and other children. If done verbally follow up with an email summarising what was agreed. Ensure that follow up update meetings are planned. Check with staff every day whether any incidents have occurred with your child. Sadly, in my experience the staff are so stretched - it's important that they appreciate what's going on and to be extra vigilant. Don't get involved with the parents, leave it to the nursery, but ensure that they keep you informed as to the outcome of discussions.

In the 4 schools I've worked in, yes, we would get all parties involved together to work through the issue. This isn't a 'having a go' session but merely an approach (that in my experience has worked) to try and come up with strategies that are going to work for everyone.

What age group is that though? It's what we might do with a bullying issue in secondary school, but this isn't bullying and concerns much younger children.

I really think your frustration is misplaced. Take all of your attention off M and her parents. She is not the problem. Your problem is nursery not appropriately looking after your child. That is what you need to complain about.

if the parents aren't on board and following through, what's the point?
The point is that nursery need to develop strategies to protect your child. As a teacher you surely teach children whose parents aren't on board. You don't just think 'no point then', do you? You come up with strategies to support the child in your class, surely?

Clearly M is a child with potential SN or other support needs. The observation will be done by someone with experience in SN and behaviour difficulties. The observation is presuambly part of the process of organising funding for extra care. The observer might be a SENCO (or maybe psychologist) from the LA and lead directly to 1-1 support, or might lead to a referral for more assessments and maybe diagnosis which then leads to support.

I have suggested (but don't know at all if this would be helpful) that I want a meeting with a senior member of staff at nursery as well as M's parents so that we can discuss strategies for a way forward (to be blunt - stop pandering to the tantrums and see the effect this is having on others). ARGH!!! I'm hopping mad but trying hard not to be unreasonable.

By all means talk to the nursery staff and complain loudly about your DD's safety and feelings. It would be highly inappropriate for you to speak to M's parents. The nursery have already shared a little more with you than they should.

I witnessed M having a temper tantrum as Mum was collecting them from nursery. M wanted a toy that belonged to another child and M's Mum simply said to the other child, "Can you just let M have the toy for the night?" followed by lots of other attempts to 'reason' with M

In the meantime please could you respect that at this stage neither his mother nor the nursery know what his SN are and so they don't know what he understands or what discipline strategies are effective or even possible for him, and - while insisting that the nursery do everything to keep your DD safe - try to be be tolerant of his needs?

And I know I'm probably being unreasonable but I do feel like saying - just discipline the child!!! She strangled someone FFS!!!

Definitely don't say that! Even that behaviour is not something that can be quickly resolved by "discipline". At this stage the focus needs to be on safety for all the children and on getting M's needs assessed and met. And I am surprised that your training and experience as a teacher has not yet included this.

To be clear - M didn't try to take the toy from your child. So that is really none of your business.

It's a horrible situation to be in - because you aren't there to help your child and you're relying on staff to keep them safe

I would complain very loudly every time your child is hurt - by email
Ask for details of what happened and what measures are being put in place (i.e. He's not to sit next to DD at lunch time)

When do they start school and will they be together? Are there more than one class?

So there is a child who pretty obviously has some sort of additional needs and your first response is to judge. Good lesson too be teaching your child there!

By all means ask nursery what they are doing to keep your child safe but beyond that what they are doing is quite frankly none of your business!

What stage do you teach? Am completely gobsmacked at the idea of having 2 sets of parents in a room to discuss an issue; it is never appropriate to discuss a child in front of another child's parents. It concerns me tbh that you think that would be appropriate. It also concerns me that you think it's acceptable that the nursery have shared what should be private information regarding another child (that they require significant support).

As pps have said you need to focus on the safety of your child - not on "controlling" another child. If your child is being so badly impacted maybe another setting is the answer.

you could just wait til the child does something to your child in front of you and then tell it off yourself and see if disciplining works.

at some point children do have to learn that when they piss off members of the public there are repercussions.

It might be Unique And Special Behavioural Uniqueness, but it might just be crap parenting.

Lots of sympathy for your chold getting hurt and understand your upset over this.
But yabu to expect a meeting with M's parents. This is totally inappropriate and I'm amazed this has happened in 4 schools you have worked at. As PP asked , is this secondary? The nursery were also extremely UR to discuss M with you at all. If your child is being hurt you have every right to talk to the nursery and find out what is in place to prevent this but that's where it ends.

YABU
As a parent of a child with SEN and extremely challenging behaviour (due to the sen) there is no way I would agree to meet with other parents to discuss my child's behaviour.
You need to keep raising your concerns with the nursery as they have a duty to safeguard your DD. You have no right to any information about M.

You can't expect a meeting with M's parents, that's not going to help anyone. All you can do is raise your concerns about your own child, and ask them to put strategies in place to protect your child. You can't ask them about M, or even bring other incidents with other children into it.
The only way to approach this is basing your comments to nursery on what is immediately affecting your own child and how to help your child.

I've experienced this with my eldest when he was in nursery ....of course you have every right to keep your child safe and I escalated my concerns to the senior team in the same situation

But it is completely unacceptable to expect to have any say or input into the other child's parenting....I don't care if you're an educational psychologist with degrees up the wazoo ....in that nursery you are a mum ....how dare you be so arrogant to expect to have a joint meeting....it truly beggers belief

Raise it through normal channels and stay on earth out of "tactics" for another parent to manager their child

Tell me.....are you aware if that child has been through a very serious traumatic experience? Lost a parent ? Witnessed a disaster or serious accident ? No? Oh but there we go you sticking your oar in and condescendingly deigning to offer your expertise will make it all better

Good grief....by all means ask for what assurances that your child will be safe....and then walk away and leave everyone else to it

You're a teacher? I'm amazed.
I used to teach in secondary and getting both sets of parents in one room when there was the possibility of sn, didn't happen there either.

I'd also suggest that if M is behaving as aggressively as you say, there is some kind of underlying issue and it's not as simple as "discipline ffs". Whether that's SN or some kind of trauma, it sounds like this child needs input from people who understand why this is happening.

Special needs - autism, sensory issues, attention issues, impulse control, reduced ability to predict outcomes of behaviour etc etc HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH DISCIPLINE

And the business about witnessing a tantrum? For all you know, that meltdown might have continued for hours and hours. You're showing a stunning lack of insight.

Should have said - I'm very sorry about you poor DD . Some "lovely" places fall apart when it comes to managing really challenging children. As people have said your own focus should be all on DD, and only on M as far as his behaviour directly affects her. And I hope talking to the nursery helps.

This thread will end up like all the others on similar subjects, M gets all the sympathy and the poor children being subject to abuse and violence simply have their needs and views ignored. Too right your daughter should be safe. I would suggest that if steps are not taken to ensure this happens you should make a safeguarding referral to Social Services and contact Ofsted. If M is not getting the 1 to 1 time needed it is clear the nursery are unable to meet her needs and they should not have offered a place to her. It might not be the right thing to do but I would be making my views very clear to the mother if the safety of my child was at risk. The situation with the toy shows the mother has no intention of doing anything but giving in to her.

Exconstance i agree. Have had similar situation but not with a nursery where the sen child's needs trump the safety of my dc. It led to a period of non contact in our case which was unfortunate but necessary.

Op you can do nothing about m but look after your own dc and in this case I would withdraw your child citing safeguarding concerns. This nursery strikes me as unable to meet the needs of either child and will harm both in the process.

Ex I think you are missing the point. Op is being told to focus on her own dd and not M, at least not to want information over and above what she should be given. Confidentiality and all that.

I'm sure OP would be less than pleased if it became common knowledge that her dd was, for example, wetting herself regularly. Taken out of context it could seem that op hadn't toilet trained her properly, not that it was anxiety causing the wetting.

No child deserves to feel unsafe in their preschool/nursery environment. But equally no parent should feel their business is anything but theirs. OP needs to focus on reporting to nursery that her dd feels unsafe, anxious etc around M and how can nursery manage that. How nursery choose to deal with M is between them and her parents. All OP needs to know is that it is in hand and to continue reporting if there continue to be problems between her child and any other.

You have no right to information about this child.

You don't sound like you have much understanding of how assessment processes work for someone who's a teacher.

M gets all the sympathy and the poor children being subject to abuse and violence simply have their needs and views ignored.

You are spectacularly missing the point @exconstance. No one has suggested the ops child doesn't matter. We've all said she needs to focus her attention on her child's needs and safety, not M.

I've been on both sides of this. My oldest has SN which were undiagnosed when he started nursery. He did hurt children. Usually pushing if they got too close to him. He couldn't handle anyone in his personal space. He also had severe speech delay so couldn't just tell the child to back away. Without any sort of diagnosis the school had no extra funding for him. But they found the money, they worked around it and made sure there was someone with him at all times. In reception, when it became clear he couldn't handle lunch time I would go and collect him for lunch and bring him back for the afternoon. Thankfully as he's got older he became more able to control his impulses. But during that time I felt awful for the children he had hurt. I'd cry in bed at night wishing he was "normal". I was nearly beaten up outside school one day with ds and then baby dd with me by another parent who was sick of their child being hurt. It was an awful time and no amount of discipline would have helped.

The past year DD has been at nursery with a little girl who I presume is being assessed for SN. Now the tables have turned and it was my child coming home from school upset about being hit or bitten or stomped on. Even after what we went through with DS I was still angry. Because my child was hurt and upset and I wanted to protect her. But I have a very good understanding of how the nursery will be dealing with this behind the scenes and I explained to DD that some children take a little longer to learn not to hit and the best thing for her to do was to stay away unless a grown up is there as well.

You definitely need to speak to the nursery, ask them what they are doing to keep your DD safe. The other child is nothing to do with you. You do not need to speak to the parents, I can guarantee you that they know what's happening and I would hope they are doing all they can to help. Your priority is your own child's safety and the nursery need provide the right care for all the children in the class with or without funding.