To want the other parents/nursery to do more?

[PeoniesGinandBags]

Okay so here goes...

DC goes to a lovely local nursery that I've always been happy with. Great staff, lots of activities etc. About 6 months ago another child started at the nursery - M.

We've had the usual ups and downs of nursery as children adjust, start/stop biting etc etc so I'm used to dealing with 'issues' and appreciate (being a teacher myself) that no child is perfect, two sides to every story etc.

However... M is a bloody nightmare.

On 3 occasions M has assaulted my child - yesterday getting hold of DC's hair with two hands and hitting it off the dinner table. These are not isolated cases. Two weeks ago I was collecting DC from nursery and I witnessed M casually walking over to another child, pushing them over and walking off. A week prior to that there was an incident involving M putting her hands around the neck of the same child she pushed over.

When I've spoken to nursery before about M they told me that it's 'in hand' and that 'someone was coming that day to do an observation of her'. I don't know who this would be?

To compound the issue (for me anyway) I witnessed M having a temper tantrum as Mum was collecting them from nursery. M wanted a toy that belonged to another child and M's Mum simply said to the other child, "Can you just let M have the toy for the night?" followed by lots of other attempts to 'reason' with M.

I'm sick to the back teeth of DC doing what they should, reporting things to the staff, not shouting/hitting back but to be honest enough is enough. It just seems that M is out of control. I can see there are issues for her but things seem to be escalating to an alarming degree.

Any advice? I called nursery this morning ahead of dropping DC off and said that I wanted to escalate my concerns, that we had had a bad night with DC after what had happened yesterday etc and I'm waiting to hear back from them. I have suggested (but don't know at all if this would be helpful) that I want a meeting with a senior member of staff at nursery as well as M's parents so that we can discuss strategies for a way forward (to be blunt - stop pandering to the tantrums and see the effect this is having on others). ARGH!!! I'm hopping mad but trying hard not to be unreasonable.

AIBU???

Is a victim-impact observation classed as SEN then?

It's not the observation that's classed as an SEN, but being a victim should be if it's affecting the child's education or their access to education, including indirectly through its effect on their behaviour.

Mantlepiece "I cannot understand how anyone thinks it is ok for another child to be repeatedly attacked."

I can't believe that you've concluded that from this thread! No one has said that!

If one child is repeatedly hurting another child/children and staff are failing to protect those children I would suggest a call to Ofsted. Meanwhile point out to staff it is a safeguarding concern and they are duty bound to protect children from harm or the risk of harm - regardless of who is inflicting hurt.

what points have I missed exactly

All the other points people made? The nursery is taking a big risk and behaving unprofessionally - and so was yours, even though it turned out well in your case. This time it is not likely to turn out well, as the OP seems to want to be told things she's not supposed to and the nursery has already shared confidential information most likely without permission. They are making a mess of things.

If the OP decides the only way is to move her DD then I wouldn't blame her, though it sounds a bit premature to me. This is after all only the first time she has tried to escalate concerns with the nursery. But whatever happens meeting the other parents is the wrong way to go, and the nursery should not have agreed to it.

YABU about pretending to be a teacher.... any real teacher would recognise that there is likely to be additional needs and that the nursery are likely to be working on supporting those but as with all children and their provision it can be trial and error

GreenTulips I sobbed my heart out for a solid hour the night my DD finished primary school. I made the tough decision to move her out of her primary school she'd been in since nursery because of how it had changed for the worst. I know exactly what it's like ti have to make your DD go back to school and her being shitscated whether its going to be the girl and her gang corner her today (but its okay because the girl had friendship problems ) or if it's going to be the boy giving you shit again today (but that's okay because hes having problems at home) or if it's going to be the other group hiding your workbook and packed lunch bag today and knowing your teacher is too scared to do anything in case the parent kicks off at them or if the TA is just going to tell you to 'suck it up' again and get in with your work. Not only that. When your mum tells you, make then listen, and you do just that, you refuse to get on with your work until someone helps you. It's YOU that gets in trouble for being disruptive. Not the ones who caused the disruption in the first place. I will always carry the guilt with me that I wished I'd pushed sooner, that I wished I'd done more for her, that I wish I had moved her YEARS before I did. I get it. I really do. I and my Precious DD have lived it.

However, the difference here is that the OPs DC is much younger, and they don't appear to be very co-operative. I remained co-operative throughout with DD and if the OP wants to be taken seriously. She needs to too. Simply demanding what the parents are going to do with Ms behaviour is not going to help.

mantle who on this thread has said it's ok for the OP's daughter to be repeatedly hurt?

No one, that's who.

YABU about pretending to be a teacher.... any real teacher would recognise that there is likely to be additional needs and that the nursery are likely to be working on supporting those but as with all children and their provision it can be trial and error

Exactly loveslipstick!!!

Equally any real teacher would know that "disciplining FFS" is not the cure for these issues.

Any real teacher would know a meeting between parents (so that one mother can tell the other what to do with their child) is NOT NOT NOT NOT the way to go.

Disagree that any teacher would know that discipline was not the answer. Most special school teachers I know that work with SEBD children would think routine, structure, explicit expectations and firmly imposed sanctions coupled with rewards for specific things was exactly the way to manage challenging behaviour.

In fact most would say that SEN children can be naughty just like any other child. Most would also say that some children's behaviour was managed in school but exacerbated by some parents. Note the word some.

I for one, OP, am very pleased that the nursery appear to be taking you seriously. And guess what? I have been a secondary school senco!

It's amazing that so many people seem to have decided, with very little knowledge, that this child has DSEN. How do they know? What if, after being observed by the correct professionals, it just turns out that this child is poorly behaved?

Plus, in the five schools I've worked in throughout my career, if we put things in place for a child diagnosed with DSEN and they continued to be a risk to themselves and others, we would find them alternate provision so actually, this child might not be in mainstream education forever, free to terrorise everyone around them.

In addition to the above, I also have an adopted son with ADHD and have always agreed with the school 'disciplining' him when he behaves badly towards others and have followed this up with appropriate sanctions at home. Having DSEN is not an excuse to behave like a monster as long as the correct provisions are in place to support the person who has the issue.

@Crumbs1 firmly imposed sanctions is discipline

Oh sorry, read again and totally agree with you Crumbs

That depends upon the cause of the challenging behaviour.
Behaviour can also be easier to manage in school when you have multiple staff available, you have only that child's education to think about and you are regularly having more than 3 hours sleep. (as it is for some parents).

Well maybe sometimes discipline is needed. Whatever the reason I would not allow my child to be terrorized at nursery by another child, regardless of any problems the child may have

And if your child was doing the terrorising?

Isadoradancing123 " I would not allow my child to be terrorized at nursery by another child"
No one has suggested that any child should be terrorised!

Wow, what a thread. Utterly depressing that an early years setting would display such poor practice. They have no right to have divulged such information concerning M's need for a 1-1, and are appalling for suggesting the proposed meeting.

It is true that 1-1 funding is getting more and more difficult to get in early years, but it can be available without a diagnosis. It may be that the setting is having the observations, and working to an iep in order to provide evidence for a 1-1.

And guess what? I have been a secondary school senco!

So, completely different to an early years SENCO then?

The nursery can do whatever discipline they see fit. What they can't do is get the OP to tell the other mother how to discipline, or tell the OP about the other child except as it relates to protecting her own.

With less loveliness and more professionalism the OP's DD might never have had to suffer this badly managed situation in the first place.

"They know ,they just chose to ignore. If there's a medical reason, they know too!"

Absolute rubbish at this age! I'll give you two cases out of three children in my family:

DD1: I thought there was something 'wrong' from an early age, but was told I was neurotic. By the time she reached preschool age I thought I was a poor parent with a head strong child. After 8 weeks of preschool, they suggested 1:1 support 'to give her extra attention'. The only thing that the Area Inclusion Co-ordinator would say was that she was 'immature'. Had she not started falling over for no reason, she wouldn't have had an EEG which showed her epilepsy and an MRI scan which showed her brain malformation. She goes to special school and is now 11.

DD2: Again I thought something was 'wrong' but this time I was told that I was neurotic because DD1 has SN. She didn't seem to play with other kids at preschool, she had little routines, I had to teach her eye contact, she didn't cope with change, etc. Nobody saw what I saw, even a Paediatrician dismissed us. Three schools later they've finally seen it. We've finally been seen by CAMHS, and the first screen has indicated ASD. She's now almost 10.

So no, they really might not know if it's medical.

As a nursery manager I'm shocked at how the nursery is handling this
I can't get past the joint meeting
What on earth do they hope to achieve by that?
Such poor practice

@AwaywiththePixies27 are the processes that different? Honestly asking here. I know that in a primary school setting, support (whatever that looked like for the child in question) would be put in place and if it continued to fail, alternate provision would be the next step and they would not remain in mainstream education and be allowed to behave as they wished. Obviously this is more fair on the child as well anyway as a specialist school would be able to cater for their needs. I don't know about nursery?

It's not known for fact yet that M actually has SEN. Seems everyone is jumping to that conclusion without any assessment actually been carried out...yet.
It could well turn out that M doesn't have SEN....what then?

ifeeltheneedtheneedforspeed

What else could it be? The child is so little that it's almost impossible to be straightforward bad choices!

And even the most tricky child if NT can be managed by school into behaving acceptably. But if that isn't happening then surely the only conclusion is that there is an organic difference in the child.

What then? It continues to be the nursery's job to manage the situation the same as it is now.