To want the other parents/nursery to do more?

[PeoniesGinandBags]

Okay so here goes...

DC goes to a lovely local nursery that I've always been happy with. Great staff, lots of activities etc. About 6 months ago another child started at the nursery - M.

We've had the usual ups and downs of nursery as children adjust, start/stop biting etc etc so I'm used to dealing with 'issues' and appreciate (being a teacher myself) that no child is perfect, two sides to every story etc.

However... M is a bloody nightmare.

On 3 occasions M has assaulted my child - yesterday getting hold of DC's hair with two hands and hitting it off the dinner table. These are not isolated cases. Two weeks ago I was collecting DC from nursery and I witnessed M casually walking over to another child, pushing them over and walking off. A week prior to that there was an incident involving M putting her hands around the neck of the same child she pushed over.

When I've spoken to nursery before about M they told me that it's 'in hand' and that 'someone was coming that day to do an observation of her'. I don't know who this would be?

To compound the issue (for me anyway) I witnessed M having a temper tantrum as Mum was collecting them from nursery. M wanted a toy that belonged to another child and M's Mum simply said to the other child, "Can you just let M have the toy for the night?" followed by lots of other attempts to 'reason' with M.

I'm sick to the back teeth of DC doing what they should, reporting things to the staff, not shouting/hitting back but to be honest enough is enough. It just seems that M is out of control. I can see there are issues for her but things seem to be escalating to an alarming degree.

Any advice? I called nursery this morning ahead of dropping DC off and said that I wanted to escalate my concerns, that we had had a bad night with DC after what had happened yesterday etc and I'm waiting to hear back from them. I have suggested (but don't know at all if this would be helpful) that I want a meeting with a senior member of staff at nursery as well as M's parents so that we can discuss strategies for a way forward (to be blunt - stop pandering to the tantrums and see the effect this is having on others). ARGH!!! I'm hopping mad but trying hard not to be unreasonable.

AIBU???

No they all think they're being so "right on" and "inclusive" while being anything but. It's all well and good until it doesn't suit them and then the true colours come out.
Sometimes I wonder if parents of kids who don't have special needs have a fucking clue what it's like for our kids to go through life up against attitudes like theirs, to wonder why people feel they have the right to sneer, to pass judgement, to pass comment on them, despite them trying their very best to do everything that's asked of them, despite (in my kids' case) the whole world being very overwhelming and confusing to them at the best of times.
When I see my kids confused that people don't "get" them, reject their attempts to be friendly, or worse, call them weirdos and freaks it absolutely shatters me. Because they are just kids, being written off by people who can't be arsed because they don't fit into neat little NT boxes. Sometimes I fucking hate people, I really do.

They think, wrongly, that all behaviour is a direct result of parenting and schooling.

Agreed. The OP clearly thinks this because of the social comments they made.

They have arranged a meeting next week for me, the nurser manager and the parent's of the other child to speak about what is happening at nursery

I attended a similar meeting once. Three children were bullying my autistic sister. She also has DCD, so they'd push, hit and punch her because they knew she'd struggle to get up. They'd also deliberately cause a meltdown and then claim to be her friend. Anyway, one day, my sibling hit back and the three mothers went up the school raging, saying that their precious darlings have never laid a finger on anyone. In this meeting, I was in a similar situation to M's mum, because my sister didn't understand why she was allowed to be hit, but wasn't allowed to hit, so she was hitting people and then saying she was their friend. Of course, we tried our bloody best to stop it!

I went into that meeting. Three mums, me, deputy head and head. I was ripped to shreds, but one comment pissed me off. It was from one of the mums who had childcare qualifications etc - She said 'Why should our children be harmed just because she (me) can't be arsed to discipline the kid. Give it a slap and it'll learn'
So, it was ok for their children to hit and my sibling to come home covered in bruises, a black eye, a bruised head, scratches etc, but the second their kid got one tap on the hand, they insisted I needed to discipline?

Said parents then waited outside the school gates threatening to 'smash my ugly face in'.

This child could have come from another nursery where they've been hit by another child and are replaying it, they could have SEN, they could have a traumatic home life. I'm sure that the parents are trying their best to do right by their child and others whom are directly affected by their behaviour. All I can really say is please be kind. You really don't know what's going on behind closed doors.

I do hope M's parents or a member of M's nursery staff see this thread and call a halt to an all party meeting. This is entirely inappropriate.

If I were M's parents and asked to do this I would also be reporting the nursery to Ofsted for suggesting such a thing and giving information about my child to another parent.

quite timely this popped on my news feed.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-40717652

As usual, there are 2 sides. Of course the nursery has a duty of confidentiality and cannot discuss anything about a child with other parents, and they don't have to justify how they handling the kid

HOWEVER they also have a responsability towards all the other children. It's unacceptable that, once they are aware of an issue- whatever it may be - they are not preventing further incident. Kids should be safe, that's all of them. So what happens when a child becomes a school refuser following bullying? What happens when they start having nightmares, and are really struggling because of a bully? That's not fair either.

It doesn't even matter why the other child is a nightmare, it's entirely up to the nursery to handle him and, if they know there's something about him - in his history or medical notes- they must keep an eye on him.

OP you have no chance in hell meeting the other parents, and even if you did, to achieve anything. If the attitude is purely because of the lack of parenting you witness, they won't improve because you tell them. They know ,they just chose to ignore. If there's a medical reason, they know too!

I am stunned that the nursery would expose another set of parents to a meeting where they are essentially going to be challenged about the behaviour of their child who has already been recognised to have SEN. In fact, I am so stunned that I think it is an abuse of their authority and they have broken their confidentiality rules.

You have absolutely no right to make suggestions about their parenting, teacher or not, and they should be setting you right that you are just another parent and they are responsible for keeping your child safe. If your child gets hurt, it is the staff who are responsible, not the child and not the child's parents.

About the disablism. Is it disablist to respond in the way OP did when you don't know if the child has SN? What about the assumption that a child being violent has SN?

What's bullying got to do with anything???? These are teeny children! And SEN children are many many more times more likely to be bullied and be school registers than NT kids!

And as for your comment about "if it's medical, they know" how incredibly ignorant! Do you know that the average age for any diagnosis of additional needs is 8? The referral process is so slow that a complete and accurate picture of what's happening, at nursery, is incredibly unlikely. Did you know that?

My last post was to Coddiwomple

It's disablist to say that discipline will "cure" SN, it's disablist to dismiss SN in a "SN or not" way, like it's even slightly similar, it's disablist to imply that kids with SN shouldn't be around NT kids because the parents don't like it, it's disablist to dismiss the points made by parents of kids with SN because it doesn't suit your agenda, and it's disablist to assume all kids with SN are violent.

Well I'm not sure I believe it Awaywiththepixies. But then again it's not unheard of for such awful nurseries to exist. If they have disclosed information and facilitated this meeting I certainly wouldn't continue to send my child here (whoever's parent I was). They are clearly as ignorant as op

I think it's pretty safe to assume that a child who is behaving like the op has described, and who the nursery have felt the need to call in extra support (which the Op shouldn't have been told) has some sort of "extra" need. at nursery age it is highly unlikely that anything has been diagnosed but that doesn't lessen the need (in fact it could increase it)

If I was Ms parents I would be removing my child from the nursery and reporting them to ofsted as it is pretty clear they don't respect confidentiality for the children in their care and agreeing to oversee a meeting between parents of 4 year olds is an awful pressure to put on the parents.

Nursery have just called me. They have arranged a meeting next week for me, the nurse manager and the parent's of the other child to speak about what is happening at nursery

I am sorry but I do not believe this to be true. I cannot believe any educational establishment, most of all the early years, would allow one child's mother to insist upon a meeting with another so that the first could tell the second what to do. I have 25 years experience of caring for children with disabilities and additional needs and I am unable to believe this could happen. I do not believe this could happen, but if I am wrong the OP is stating facts then the nursery should not be allowed to continue operating.

The OP also states she is a teacher. How sad, how unbearably sad that children (and their parents) will be coming into contact with this person. Her lack of understanding, and kindness and sympathy, is beyond astounding. And her views on those with additional difficulties are simply wrong. This breaks my heart,

Amateursleuth fighting discrimination is partly to do with awareness. So by the same token is it disablist to assume that someone with indistinct speech and an unusual gait is drunk or high until you know for sure if they have a brain injury for example?

M doesn't necessarily have SN - we used to have terrible problems with a child physically hurting, strangling and pushing my then 4 year old's head into a low window sill in reception year - I had to keep complaining but all they did was sit him infront of Head's office and feed him sweets - he doesn't have SN and never has ... sometimes it is a lack of discipline by the parents that 'allows' a child to think they are entitled to anything and to treat anyone as badly as they feel like. You need to keep pushing for something to be done when your DC is suffering

About the disablism. Is it disablist to respond in the way OP did when you don't know if the child has SN? What about the assumption that a child being violent has SN?

Pretty much yes. The child is persistently violent even in a place where she's being well cared for and normally disciplined like the other kids. That doesn't happen for no reason, and it doesn't happen for trivial reasons like being over-indulged or "pandered to" by parents. It's true that not all SN are disabilities, some are the result of trauma or neglect etc, but to all intents and purposes it's the same thing.

Is it disablist to respond in the way OP did when you don't know if the child has SN?

ameteursleuth the OP clearly stated that the nursery had told her that someone was coming in to observe M. This is usually what happens when SENs is suspected.

The OP knows damn well that SENs is a possibility, so yes it can be seen as disablist.

Serialweightwatcher are you privy to the other child's medical and educational records? No. Thought it.

And as for your comment about "if it's medical, they know" how incredibly ignorant!

Oh sorry! Do you prefer for people to tell the parents that their kid just need parenting, not assume that they are aware of the problem and working on it? Bloody hell, you are so not helping parents!

SEN children are many many more times more likely to be bullied and be school registers than NT kids! what does this have to do with anything? It's the OP's kid who is being hurt? Who cares about the statistics, it's the OP child who is suffering here? Is that your answer? IF the other child has SN (and you are the one assuming here), tell the other one: ok you got hurt, but you are the minority. What nonsense is that.
I am just blaming the nursery staff for being aware that there is a problem - WHATEVER IT MIGHT BE - and not addressing it.

Knowing absolutely nothing about the situation, I am wondering if there is a lot more going on in this child's life than you are aware of. If so, the staff, have rightly kept it confidential and are possibly helping a child through some very difficult feelings and emotions

Absolutely wildernesswhale - and now we are expected to believe that the nursery have arranged a meeting so that the OP can tell everyone how to discipline this child. Never mind confidentiality, never mind rules and regulations, never mind the law - the OP it seems is above all that. The OP is probably the very worst person in the world to offer advise and I find it almost unbelievable that the OP has enough "power" or "authority" over the nursery to insist this should happen. No way.

It's highly unlikely anyone would be coming to observe a child unless is was very strongly felt by a health professional (and probably more than one) that there was something more than bad parenting going on.

M doesn't necessarily have SN

The very fact she's being observed suggests otherwise.

Coddiwomple your reply doesn't make sense. If the child does have a medical problem in all likelihood it won't have been picked up yet, so your statement "if it's medical they know" is plainly untrue. See?

I'm not sure that this approach is even that appropriate for older children without special needs, let alone very small children with possible behavioural difficulties. I think we had a couple of meetings at school to manage bullying type behaviour, but the reason why parents were involved was because some of the issues were outside of school so it needed a holistic approach (and the children were 11 so very different).

The OP should meet with nursery staff to discuss how her child is being kept safe, and M's parent should meet with nursery to discuss how they are managing behaviour but the two sets of parents have absolutely no reason to meet at all. Sounds like a very badly managed place. And yes are the parents going to be required to meet with every other set of parents at the nursery?