Gender Self Identification debate continued

[PoochSmooch]

Continuation of the thread from here

Friend of mine posted the bbc article on Facebook this evening and raised a concern about women's shelters. She asked for opinions about it. There were three in the following discussion. I posted about losing protection ie legal and the sports issues. The other two were women who called me a bigoted transphobe who was privileged. These were friends of a friend.
Frankly it was shocking. Have we come to this?

What are the men's groups that have been shut down? Feminists don't generally wield that much power! I don't think they are particularly interested in men's groups, unless they are seat of power where decisions are being made about women, but exclude women's input.

And for what it's worth, men aren't generally denied access to feminist groups. As long as they don't insist on centring men in the discussions. Like transwomen who think it's unfair and cissexist for women to talk about reproductive health and services, because it excludes them. The fact that it doesn't apply to them, doesn't seem to matter.

And your point about male violence is spot-on. It's not feminists who are attacking trans people. But it is indeed feminists who are being targetted.

GrimDamnFanjo

It's very difficult. No wonder you're shocked. Don't get into a slanging match. Just remain calm and rational.

Perhaps you could ask exactly what it is they think is transphobic. Get them to explain.

But keep calm. See if you can get them to think more critically by explaining to you why it's transphobic.

Would love to hear of a men's group that has been shut down. Genuinely!

It was all surreal. I was asked which jobs are protected and gave the first answer that came into my head eg female counsellor for female rape victim. Big mistake. Was told there was no need for female scholarships. One thing I noticed was how angry they got so quickly.

I agree it's about tying them up with their own "logic", stating facts isn't bigotry. Biology isn't transphobic, it's just biology.
Hope you're ok.

I more meant as in mens clubs, whether that be golf clubs for men or things like the scouts...etc. I'm not in favour of these but they do tend to get shut down. A good example would be networking events for business. I'm not allowed to go to quite a few in my area as they are women only events but men only business networking events are instantly shot down.

It also happens with gyms, a lot of gyms are for women only but not men only.

Men do tend to be more violent so we obviously agree on that, I think where there is a lot of discord is that as a man it can feel like we're all being tied in with the same brush when the majority of us are not rapists and are not bad people. Although yes we tend to be the violent ones what about the flipside, like how men almost never get custody...etc.

Men hardly ever get custody, rockhopper, because men hardly ever put the same time and emotional/ practical effort into looking after their kids. When they do it gets rewarded. Men have the option of walking out on their kids, women do not to the same degree - the common phrase has 'wife & children' or 'women and children' for a reason. Bad example.

As far as men getting all defensive about being tarred with the same brush, I do have some sympathy - but having had my head bitten off about it a few times by such men exhibiting those same aggressive traits, not very much. Male violence is something women and girls have to live with, it's a reality that dictates our behaviour and opportunities everyday all of our lives. We're told to get over it and live with it, everyday. Why can men not live with that reality too without expecting women to feel sorry for them?

This is a very interesting conversation with rockhopper

rockhopper, can you say why you/ men need men only business events? What is your understanding of the argument for having women only business events?

I read something very true a while ago:

Women want access to men's public groups - men want access to women's private spaces.

Golf clubs are a bit of a borderline case - they are where men do their business deals, despite officially being for golf.

Women's only business events are to help a disadvantaged group. What would men need men's only business events for when they have all the top positions already?

As for gyms, I wouldn't have any problem with some gyms being men's only, and I strongly suspect the non-existence of those is because there's no demand. Men want to exclude women from power and decision-making. But from their private lives? Not really.
Unless we're talking of Catholic priests, (a lot of whom apparently are gay ...) offering men a space where no women will try to flirt with them won't get you many customers.

Not all men are violent Rockhopper but all men can benefit form the fact that women, as a class, are scared of men. A man can raise his voice because he is cross but a woman will feel threatened and wary, she may capitulate to keep the peace. Shouty man may not be violent but it's hard to tell which is why we tend to appease men.

Women need some peace from this, some privacy, a chance to be themselves not what they are expected to be.

GrimDamnFanjo

I think it's that some people don't realise the motivation behind a lot of this. Did you mention the transwoman who spent 12 years trying to become a rape victim counsellor? Took it all the way through the courts in Canada. And cost the rape refuge hundreds of thousands of dollars.

If people don't think that's wrong, there's not much else you can say.

I hate to say this, because I believe truth does matter, but don't engage if it will lose you friends. Unless you're happy to lose them.

Mumsnet is one of the few places, if not the only one, where people can talk about this without being abused. MNHQ will delete all personal attacks. And although things can, and do, get heated, people are at liberty to put their point over, from either side.

After a while, purely by dint of a to and fro conversation, people start to wonder. Then they can do their own research.

Many people simply aren't getting to hear the different sides of the ideology.

Also, there's that mob mentality that starts if you're online. It's almost unavoidable. Perhaps seeing friends face-to-face would be better.

Actually it's interesting that your general response is "oh wow general rape culture and this hardcore group of activists suck BUT think of us! Women have taken over men's spaces!"

It's sort of a "look, now you get to feel what it's like, and no we don't like it either thing".

And what men's spaces have women taken over? Not their toilets. Not their private spaces. Not their prisons. Not their public schools. Not their secret clubs or men's clubs. Not even really things like golf clubs (I drive past an exclusive one every day and I've actually never spotted a woman.)

No, we've "taken over" (or rather been admitted to) jobs, roles, employment places. There's more than one online argument that we've seen the salaries fall hugely in those sectors to compensate. We still don't get paid equally anyway and we're still not represented at the top. We're more likely to have to take eons of time off to look after the next generation. We're seen as people there to hit a diversity number sometimes, or if we're promoted above a man it's to tick a box. We are nowhere near "automatically equal". We can walk into golf clubs but many women wouldn't because it's still very clear it's not "our" place, we're supposed to be at soft play; golf is for our retired dads.

Add in rape culture, and biological sex advantages like strength, and financial and social advantages generally (like "wins custody", a double-edged sword based on primary care-giving which is mainly women's work). Add in bitch, whore, slut, cunt, all the major swear words which are gendered. Add in the places in the world where women don't even have the advantages we do in the UK like being allowed to drive.

But no.

There's this huge nebulous public feeling (shared by women too!) that "women have WON! They've got everything. Stop complaining, it's your turn now."

@rockhopper I suspect you don't understand the sheer scale of male violence and sexual violence towards women. If you did, and you are a decent man. you wouldn't say this

as a man it can feel like we're all being tied in with the same brush when the majority of us are not rapists and are not bad people.

We are not saying that most of you are rapists or violent to women. But enough of you are that it affects how women live in this world every day.

A few examples:

From the age of 14 to my 20s, I was cat-called by men in the street EVERY time I left the house and walked the street on my own. Some of them were intimidating.

I've been followed, harassed, I've had a man tried to drag me into his car (I was 13 then), lads chase me in a car late at night to intimidate me. I've been followed off busses by nut cases. Had a man tried to convince me to have sex with him for money (I was 14 and waiting at a bus stop).

I've been groped by strangers at parties.

I've been beaten up by two exes and date-raped twice.

More recently a stranger got on a bus. sat next to me and stuck his hands on my privates. I imediately got up and went to the driver and told him what happened, expecting him to call the police. The driver just shrugged.

My experiences are not unusual.

I saw a woman in the station in tears of fear as her ex was harassing her - she was crying and saying "please leave me alone" over and over. She wanted someone to call the police. My phone was dead so I asked a couple to lend me their phone. The man refused, he told me - and his wife - to keep out of it as it was "just a domestic". Two women a week are killed in "just a domestic" and the attitude among police used to be this also. Turn away, don't get involved. Let the woman be abused as it's "just a domestic".

Every time I am on my own at night I am aware of how vulnerable I am and wary of men. Not because I think you are all rapists or bad people, but because enough of you are that ALL women know we are at risk from them and it limits us EVERY day.

We don't talk about this stuff all the time as it's so normal. Good guys often just don't realise how common it is. It's not just one or two of them ruining it for everyone else. It's so many men that it affects us all the time.

So when you say "but it hurts my feelings when you say men intimidate women, we're not all violent / rapists" you are missing the point. You are logucally correct, but the much more important issue IMO is not the feelings of the good guys - but what we can do to change this.

Instead of saying "what about my feelings" how about saying "I'm sorry you go through this. What can I do to help? I had no idea it was this bad - how can I educate myself about this?"

And once you do appreciate the scale of the problem, if you continue to prioritise your feelings over the lived experiences of women who go through this shit daily then you may need to reassess your self-image as one of the good guys.

I'm honestly not sure that there is a way to explain it to a man oldtrees. It's like trying to explaining the concept of colour to someone who can't see. Or sound to someone who can't hear. Incomprehensibly difficult and out of their entire range of existence.

My story is much the same as oldtrees. Being a pubescent (starts pre-teenage) girl feels like one of those natural history films where baby animals have just hatched and have to run the gauntlet of huge numbers of gathered predators to get to safety.

There was a thread on MN where many women shared their experiences, all too similar, if rockhopper or similar men on the fence would care to see how common it really is - unfortunately I can't remember what it was called, can anyone else? The outside website to check is everydaysexism.com . And when the penny starts to drop about the scale of the problem, ask yourself why you didn't know about something so central to women.

I can't link on the app, but I did search - this is the thread which feels recent about this.

Rockhopper92

I won't address your entire post, because others have done it more eloquently than I.

But I did want to point out that the cubs/scouts actively started to recruit girls. Not the other way around. Because the numbers were failing.

Also

"It also happens with gyms, a lot of gyms are for women only but not men only."

In light of what other posters have pointed out, can you see why the above would happen?

I think it's sometimes quite difficult for men to understand what it's like walking through the world as a woman. And when we explain, we get accused of being petrified, paranoid victims.

I'm a fairly bolshy woman and I don't feel like a victim.

I've never been raped, but like most women I have often been subjected to unwanted male attention, or been reminded, quite forcibly, of the power dynamic.

It's so normal for women that half the time it's just something that is on our radar, a little light blipping at the corner of our consciousness.

Women will rarely get into an unlicensed taxi alone. It's automatic to book a taxi before we even go out, to bring us home. We would think twice about walking across a deserted carpark.

If we are getting the train at night, we will walk past carriages until we find one that either full of people, or where there are a couple of women. If everyone gets off and leaves us in that carriage with a lone man, our radar will be blipping. If we are on a bus that is half empty and a man sits right next to us, it's alarming.

In areas where street harassment is rife, we will change our route to avoid that building site. If we saw a bunch of men drinking and spilling out of a pub, we would cross the road, rather than continue and walk straight through.

Hearing footsteps behind us on a deserted street will be a concern.

Indeed, there was a thread on here last week about a man who said he would deliberately cross the road in that circumstance. The entire thread filled up with women posting that they appreciate his consideration.

This doesn't happen to every single woman, all the time. But to most of us, it's just something we accept every day.

One of my biggest lightbulb moments was realising that men don't think this way.

Yes, there will be occasions where you might avoid a crowd of drunk, rowdy blokes, but women risk assess all the time. We're barely conscious of it, it's so automatic.

If I get into a lift and a man gets in with me and it's just us two, there will be a nanosecond of me judging the situation. A tiny, mental sweep that I don't realise I'm doing half the time. My radar will really start to blip if he's stands too close. If he starts up a conversation in a strange way. Or, worse, mentions my appearance. I might glance at the levels to see how much longer we have.

Then I will get off, walk away and not think about it. Because all that would've happened in the briefest amount of time.

Meanwhile, he is completely unaware of it and might have just wanted to shoot the breeze for that 10 seconds.

I don't walk around in a state of paranoia, but nonetheless, I have a radar that seems to have been firmly trade marked 'For Women Only'.

Clicky link www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2756721-to-think-most-women-have-been-victims-of-sexual-assault-has-anyone-not?pg=1
That was sexual assault too, not dv.

I was discussing this issue yesterday, with two male colleagues (we are academic lefty types, well used to open and robust debate, free speech being paramount). One of them, to my surprise and pleasure, completely understood the need to separate sex and gender, and labelled it 'misogyny' that males want to invade female spaces, particularly in the case of a female rape victim having to face cries of 'transphobia' for demanding a bio female for medical exams. It's shocking that I was so taken aback by this? Given my own husband uses the word 'persecution' re: my opinions...

Women need some peace from this, some privacy, a chance to be themselves not what they are expected to be
A slightly flippant response here but I've always found it interesting how groups of women behave, and how that behaviour is stereotyped, on a night out. Loud laughter ('screeching'), talking at and over each other ('Queen Bee'), the noise ('bloody witches'), etc etc.

And when someone moans about it, almost always a male, I've always thought 'What? They're behaving like males, you mean?'

One of my biggest lightbulb moments was realising that men don't think this way

Oscar De La Renta famously advised females to 'Walk like you have three men walking behind you'.

Only a male could think this entices females to shake their bottoms, when what we're actually doing which is jamming our door key between our knuckles and wondering if it's long enough to get through an eye.

The lack of awareness of privilege blew me away when I read that.

MiddleEnglandLives

I was just coming on to post a clicky link to that thread!

What stands out, for me, is the thread is made up of women who view low-level harassment, as harassment, and then some who view it as normal. We're conditioned to set the bar so low.

That, and the sheer number of women who have been sexually assaulted or raped. Overwhelming and heartbreaking.

I don't walk around in a state of paranoia, but nonetheless, I have a radar that seems to have been firmly trade marked 'For Women Only'.

Brilliant post, Datun. I could not agree more. DH is a SAHD and we have two daughters - I have been patiently trying to explain this learned wariness to him so he can teach our girls as I think it's an essential survival skill in a world where sexual assault and violent crime are not rare and are seldom committed by females.

Elanetical

Indeed. Men don't have the radar, and many women don't realise men don't have the radar. We just don't think about it until it's obvious.

Last winter, DH and I were late walking the dog. The sun was just going down and he suggested we go to some local woods attached to a National Trust property. Somewhere where I frequently walk, as it is full of tourists.

As we parked the car the sun dipped right down and dusk settled. The closer we got to the woods the more uneasy I felt. I ignored it because I was with DH.

Meanwhile, he was banging on about how magical the light was. Waxing lyrical about the moon reflecting on the lake. And wasn't it a brilliant time of day to walk the dog as it was deserted. No pesky tourists.

As we walked into the woods, the darkness became impenetrable and I refused to go any further.

I tried to explain but he genuinely thought I was just 'scared of the dark'. Like a kid.

What were the chances of me meeting a predator, him managing to disable DH and then attack me? Millions to one. If not zero.

But walking the dog in the dark woods with my radar lit up so brightly, it was blinding, did not feel like an enjoyable thing to do. Despite me knowing full well that the odds were overwhelmingly on my side.

It also wasn't lost on me that if DH decided to do that by himself and came across a woman, she would be very worried. If he didn't have a dog with him, she'd be petrified.

The closer to zero I can get my risk of being sexually assaulted the better!

I can never understand men encouraging women to take risks to their safety on the basis that they think the woman's assessment of the situation is invalid.

Obviously I go outside and live my life, but if the pros of a situation don't outweigh the risks in my opinion I take a very dim view of being told that my risk assessment is wrong. I'll run my own life, thanks!

Lately I have been watching large (i.e. muscle not fat) men and wondering what that must be like. To not constantly be subconsicuouly aware of being smaller and hence more vulnerable. I'm also hugely aware of it with my DDs, to try to never physically force them to do anything just because I can as I'm bigger.