Gender Self Identification debate continued

[PoochSmooch]

Continuation of the thread from here

*kind not king, some sort of irony in that!

But that's the problem Rock. That's what we're saying.

No women's refuges. No women's sports. No women's prisons. No women's toilets. No women's scholarships. No to women's spaces that protect us from the millions of micro-aggressions and regular things like "sexual tension" which we go through with men every day since pretty much puberty, if not before.

No to the idea that women = clothes, makeup, "girly things". No to sexist gender stereotypes which hurt men too (like "if you're a man and you cry or feel xyz, then you are weak and pathetic and probably a woman deep inside"). Or "men can't wear dresses".

However, the extremist argument right now is "if you're a trans woman you're a woman, and it's offensive to be distinguished in any way". And "if you like dresses, you're a woman". And "if you feel like a woman you are, even if you're six foot tall with a beard, deep voice, male privilege, and functioning penis".

It's crazy-making stuff and objecting to any of it leaves you open to being called a transphobic person.

Of course it is important, or i think so. I've already seen how women hating men comment on these cases - now they can accuse women of being as violent or as sexually deviant men.

I guess if you think it's not important to know the sex (or truth) a you believe that TW and TM should not have to disclose their biological background to those they date or sleep with. Their are some interesting convos tonight on Twittet amongst transfolk on disclosure.

I see this as no different to when a woman may want to wear trousers and a shirt or go watch the rugby
Ah, but you do. Because when I do those things, I don't think it says anything about me in terms of gender. While you do.

I am female. I wear trousers. Therefore, some females wear trousers not some females do 'manly' things.

I think it probably is important just an interesting talking point.

I am honestly trying to engage and understand in all this by the way, if I come across as offensive, condescending or arrogant it is not on purpose.

notoneofyou - I agree and that extremist argument is always too far. But I do think there is a middle ground and everyone does seem to agree so surely this is an area that needs to be discussed in detail. I do think a good solution is just having an "other" category. No system will be perfect though in the end so perhaps this is a never ending debate.

MaidOfStars - that is purely by gender constructs in society though. I only questioned it because I was brought up to believe men can't do certain things, such as wear makeup and dresses, or enjoy a girly film or a cocktail...etc. Not so much by my parents directly but just society in general.

Rock - you should read that piece by Jamie Shupe - i think it would resonate with you.

I also think that if folk could see the conversations transfolk have on the likes of twitter and reddit - they wouldn't see a much harsher aggressive narrative than the poor sad souls who don't know what they are.

"No system will be perfect though in the end so perhaps this is a never ending debate."

The thing is, there is no debate. That's actually what threads like this are pushing for. Women aren't being consulted. Any discussion is shut down and we're bullied into shutting up. Online petitions are closed down.

But it will only ever be a theoretical debate for you because it has no consequences on you, not really. You're not likely to see any personal changes in your life. It's really real for me and other women, which makes it harder to be unemotional about it. You say it won't be perfect but why should we bear the brunt of the imperfections?

One thing you might personally notice is that we'll see those stereotypes pushed further; they already are. Someone posted an article (was it upthread?) where hundreds of kids even as young as 3 being referred to doctors for assessment because they seem to play with toys meant for the opposite sex.

bambambini - I will definitely give it a read thank you for sending it to me.

I just wish we could all be happier! I'm very much live and let live and I don't really care how someone wants to self identify, before commenting on here though I hadn't considered some of the wider legal implications and what this would mean for women so it has been interesting.

I do though think there is a lot of aggressive rhetoric from all sides though, women, men and trans. I would love it if a bunch of us could just sit in a room and have a good chat over a beer, cocktail, cider or wine and work it all out!

notoneofyou - oh god that whole 3 years old trans thing pisses me off. I have 2 girls and one of them is a proper little boy sometimes, she just like to play rough every now and then (not fighting but you get what I mean) never did I think, ah "she needs a penis"

Everyone's opinion should always be heard and petitions no matter what they are for should never be shut down as it a good peaceful way of expressing your opinion. Man if you lot want a petition site knocked up I could probably put one together I won't delete the petition!

I feel for you I really do because you are right this won't affect me day to day, where I felt it was is because I did genuinely question myself for a long time and could've easily been in that trans category so did feel some affinity to comment.

I was brought up to believe men can't do certain things, such as wear makeup and dresses, or enjoy a girly film or a cocktail...etc
The root of the problem here is not that you have a penis but that you have been told how to behave because you have a penis.

Do you see what I mean?

If the confines of your assigned gender role are too tight, throw them off and wash your hands of the whole thing.

I have 2 girls and one of them is a proper little boy sometimes, she just like to play rough every now and then
And you're propagating those rigid gender roles.

Why can't females play rough without that play being categorised as 'boy like'?

MaidOfStars oh believe me I have!

I play in a rugby team, proper "manly men" sort of place, I shave my legs and they take the piss for it but we all still pack down in the scrum together and are good mates. I can laugh at myself about it and not get angry about jokes or comments made at me.

I do though think there is a lot of aggressive rhetoric from all sides though, women, men and trans. I would love it if a bunch of us could just sit in a room and have a good chat over a beer, cocktail, cider or wine and work it all out!

I don't think that's possible tbh. With some folk from each side - yes, but with the likes of Riley Dennis, Zinnia Jones,Paris Lees, Shon Faye and Katelyn Burns? Impossible.

They just gravitated towards typical girly things when they were younger and believe me I didn't encourage it they just did. If anything I'd love it if they played rugby with me but they just don't.

I only described it as being like a boy for the sake of argument, I don't talk to her like that or really think of her like that, it's just her being her.

bambambini - there will always be extreme opinions, I like to try and listen to extreme opinions to understand the root cause of them which tends to be interesting but yeah, not the people you'd want to have a pint with!

I don't think the people's opinions i listed are considrred extreme in the trans world - they all have a large following and write articles for many mainstream news outlets.

full disclosure - no idea who they are!

Just making a general point.

I do though think there is a lot of aggressive rhetoric from all sides though, women, men and trans. I would love it if a bunch of us could just sit in a room and have a good chat over a beer, cocktail, cider or wine and work it all out!

I think the reason that some of us are so riled up about this (besides the worrying issues it raises) is because we are being silenced (everywhere except for on Mumsnet) - Politicians won't acknowledge our concerns (even when they have been raised by experts reporting to the Women and Equalities Committee), the mainstream media (barring one or two exceptions this week) give a completely one-sided view of this issue, we are shouted down as a transphobe if we so much as suggest that maybe it's not a completely fabulous idea if a convicted violent rapist with a penis is put into a women's prison, women are receiving rape threats for questioning the trans ideology online, while those who stick their head about the parapet in real life are attacked and 'no platformed', moderately-worded petitions are removed from the internet, universities don't dare to allow research that might challenge the trans ideology etc. Once you start to realise this, it is truly scary how any debate (including any consideration of women's concerns) is silenced on this issue.

Rumandraisin1 - I think that's because everyone is scared to be seen as anti-liberal.

Unfortunately most organisations in the public eye will side with the loudest voice which right now is probably trans. I don't agree with it all i really don't. But I don't agree with everything said on here either. Probably somewhere in the middle, much like my gender!

It is wrong though it really is that any voice is ever silenced when purely expressing an opinion.

Oh and in regards to receiving rape threats they're just from giant cock wombles that are probably 12 year old key board warriors.

Men get this but in the form of threats of violence. I've had someone trying to convince me my best friend was committing suicide that was just trolling, had someone else trying to get me to go naked on webcam when I was about 15 so I get the online threats thing.

I guess what's scary for women is that it is all too common for it to be a man raping a woman, I just hope you can draw some comfort in that we all get some form of online abuse and it's probably the same idiot writing the comment just to try and scare someone with no substance behind it.

Rockhopper92

I appreciate that you are trying to find a middle ground, and I always think that's a good thing to do if we can.

I'm happy to explain why this is fundamentally difficult, if not impossible.

However, in the meantime, I just want to address your comments about rape threats and threats of violence.

It is so widespread, it's not even funny. Something like less than 5% of the conversations I have had, or read with transactivists do not degenerate into the most appalling abuse.

Historically it has been reserved for feminists, but now if any dissent is raised, from anyone, it is met with abuse. Awful. The vilest you can created using words.

People are doxxed, no platformed, and threatened constantly.

Women only spaces, like lesbian bars or female festivals have been shut down. The most famous of which is Michfest. Shut down after running for 40 years because of violent transactivism.

The six feminist groups I belong to - every single one has been shut down and had to re-open under a secret name. With secret membership. Unsearchable.

Just this morning a part of a Mumsnet thread was quoted by the BBC and the women on that thread are name changing for fear of reprisals.

Women are joining feminist groups under fake names and fake accounts.

This is not because of a 12-year-old boy in his mother's basement. This is fully organised, fully funded grown men whose offical trademarks are baseball bats and blood stained T-shirts with threats to women written on them.

I could be as articulate as possible, without ever managing to convey to you the enormity of this backlash against women and their objections.

Just seen this on Twitter: www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jailhouse-frock-11-inmates-one-10896312.amp

Sorry, but this bit leapt out:

...and can spend up to £25 a week from prison bank accounts on female beauty products such as make-up.

£25 a week?

That is truly awful and in honesty something I was unaware of so I apologise for that. Ignorance on my part.

Having women only groups shut down IS a bad thing, however men only groups have been shut down due to protests from womens rights groups and the trans community receives a lot of abuse from predominantly the male community and that includes violence.

This is what is annoys me it's the endless cycle of everyone getting angry at each other, eventually one side is going to have to start giving some concessions and this should be done by all.

PS: Not the groups you mentioned above, they deserve to rot in a jail cell.