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Gender Self Identification debate continued

617 replies

PoochSmooch · 25/07/2017 07:36

Continuation of the thread from here

OP posts:
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5
Datun · 29/07/2017 13:18

I think she has made a misjudgement.

Every single MSM article I have read in the last week has been critical. The BTL comments more so. (Although largely because a lot of people think this is just snowflakery attention seeking and can't believe the government are focusing on it).

Although it does get the debate going. I've always felt that all we need is a debate. Because the ideology is full of holes.

And then there is the issue of children like Jazz Jennings. The natural extension to believing something instead of analysing it. I can't see many people, if any, accepting this fresh turn in Jazz's life.

So many children are claiming to be trans. Surely no-one, in the general public, would think that consigning them to a life of sterility, no sexual urge or function, and permanent hormones is anything short of horrific.

It must get people to ask questions.

That's all it takes. That's all I ask.

SummerKelly · 29/07/2017 14:08

This is a comment on the article, which I think sums it up perfectly:

"The 600,000 people do have a right to live without fear or intimidation, and to have equal opportunities. They do not have a right to redefine biology based on pseudopsychology."

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 29/07/2017 15:41

Speaking of things picking up media wise, I just saw this which was on sky news...

VestalVirgin · 29/07/2017 16:02

Presumably no one wants a backlash against trans people. The quiet ones, trying to go about their lives who never wanted this attention.

puts on tinfoil hat

You know, I would not be very surprised if transactivists were, in fact, planning for a backlash against those trans people who didn't want the laws changed.
And against feminism, in general. (As the average person will think it is feminists who are pushing the trans agenda)

Transactivism is a virus/parasite that intends to make feminism and LGB activism kill themselves.
In the animal world, one could assume that after its current host has died, transactivism will go and infect some other group.
Not sure how it works in society.

hackmum · 29/07/2017 16:02

I'm so relieved to read Janice Turner's article. Finally, someone in the mainstream media coolly, rationally, sensibly explaining why this bill is such an insane idea. I can't help wonder if she's a Mumsnetter - so many of the examples she gave have been discussed on here.

Much of the time on social media I feel as if I'm in a kind of Alice in Wonderland world where black is white, and white is black, and if you dare to point out that, er, actually, no, black isn't white, and white isn't black, you're condemned as a bigot.

Datun · 29/07/2017 16:05

And once again, the comments are disabled. Under that video.

Anything critical gets censored.

AssignedMentalAtBirth · 29/07/2017 16:34

countrysquire.co.uk/2017/07/27/beyond-criticism/amp/

Country squire gender critical. Who knew.

DamnDeDoubtanceIsSpartacus · 29/07/2017 20:51

I found this quite poignant, it's one of the many letters that Rose Adams wrote asking for women's toilets.

colouringinagain · 29/07/2017 21:11

Good on Country Squire whoever they are!

VestalVirgin · 29/07/2017 21:17

Thanks Dame, very interesting, I didn't know widespread public toilets for women were such a recent thing.

Well, great, we will be back in 1878 soon, if the madness is not stopped in time.

I suggest we copypaste her letter and just send it to the authorities as is; after all, women did this all once, why should we have to do all the work again?

Datun · 29/07/2017 21:39

That Country Squire article is excellent. Shoots from the hip.

It's nice to read an article where, for a change, I feel positively slain by rationality.

DamnDeDoubtanceIsSpartacus · 29/07/2017 21:42

I suggest we copypaste her letter and just send it to the authorities as is; after all, women did this all once, why should we have to do all the work again?

That would be rather wonderful.

DamnDeDoubtanceIsSpartacus · 29/07/2017 21:48

Dear sirs,

I am sending you a letter sent in 1878 as Rose Adam's words are as relevant then as they are now.

VestalVirgin · 29/07/2017 21:49

Perhaps we could cross out "women" and replace it with "uterus havers" or something that makes the issue clearer in this brave new world.
(That should be all done by hand so it is visible in the resulting document that we didn't bother to rewrite the thing. I feel it is important to emphasize it is all the same old shit.)

DamnDeDoubtanceIsSpartacus · 29/07/2017 21:50

What hasn't changed in 139 years is male violence.

DamnDeDoubtanceIsSpartacus · 29/07/2017 21:52

Uterus owners, formerly known as women.

I refuse to change the language I use to describe myself.

hackmum · 29/07/2017 21:52

Another example of gender identification insanity in the Liverpool Echo, where a man convicted of extreme pornography offences is described as a woman:

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/woman-caught-extreme-animal-porn-13399570

DamnDeDoubtanceIsSpartacus · 29/07/2017 21:54

I feel it is important to emphasize it is all the same old shit.)

Same shit, different decade/century/millennia

busyboysmum · 29/07/2017 23:44

Children as young as three being referred to gender clinics www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4742736/Children-young-three-referred-gender-clinic.html?ito=whatsapp_share_article-masthead

DamnDeDoubtanceIsSpartacus · 30/07/2017 09:27

Kids are confused because adults are confusing them.

Gender doesn't exist, it's just a sexist stereotype created by a male dominated society.

This is harmful nonsense.

I work with kids and there are gentle kids, rowdy kids, kind kids and quiet kids. Not one personality character belongs exclusively to one sex.

Datun · 30/07/2017 14:19

This is a brilliant link for anyone who is confused by gender politics.

They set everything out in very easy to understand ways. They also include articles from transwomen, which are incredibly well-balanced, and take transwomen's viewpoonts points into account.

fairplayforwomen.com/what-is-woman-transwoman

HamletsSister · 30/07/2017 14:24

Today's Sunday Times has an article, very good, Jenny McCartney.

hackmum · 30/07/2017 15:10

Here's the Jenny McCartney article for those who have access to the paywall (I don't, and have reached my two article limit for the week):

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/dangers-lurk-within-this-easy-switch-ofgender-0bsbkc8pf

Catherine Bennett also has a piece in the Observer on why single sex wards are important to protect women, and why the consultation on the new gender recognition bill threatens that. I think the tide may be turning.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/30/mixed-sexed-wards-endanger-and-humiliate-women

illegitimateMortificadospawn · 30/07/2017 15:32

Jenny McCartney article, as linked above:

The announcement by President Donald Trump of a ban on transgender people serving in the US military bore all his grim hallmarks. The policy was decreed on Twitter, sloppily and without warning. It was defiantly careless of the feelings of a minority group. Worst of all, it was conceived without the prior agreement of the organisation it affected most, the US military.

Casual dismissal is a routine hazard that trans people face, along with stupid remarks from strangers, sniggers and whispers. At worst, this hostility manifests itself in violence or even murder. Trans people have high rates of attempted suicide, particularly among young adults. “Gender reassignment” treatment involves hormone treatment and often radical surgery, and while many feel transformed for the better by it, several have spoken searingly of post-op regret.

In the past, individuals have usually pursued such a course only if they felt that their biology and feelings towards gender were unbearably at odds. To change gender legally in the UK one must at present be 18 or over, have “gender dysphoria” medically diagnosed, live in the acquired gender for two years, and intend to stay in it for the rest of one’s life.

Yet if Trump and his ilk are wilfully nasty on trans issues, an alternative form of madness is unfolding among those who think of themselves as supremely tolerant. Justine Greening, the equalities minister, has proposed that adults be able to alter their legal gender without a medical diagnosis or two-year transition period. Furthermore, those “non-binary” people who regard themselves as neither male nor female could identify as “X”.

The idea is that anyone who wishes to “transition” will simply “self-identify” as their preferred gender: Barry can legally move to Betty with a signature, and vice versa, or to a category that allows them, ze, sie, hir — pick your pronoun — to float between the two.

The old view accepted that although for most people biological sex and gender were in harmony, for a small minority the two were in direct opposition, causing great distress.

The new view seeks to sever any assumed link between biology and gender at all. What self-identification means, in effect, is that if you were born biologically a male but “identify” as female, the law is obliged under Greening’s proposals to regard you as the latter with no further social test of sincerity. Your gender is now legally located within the mind, and you are the sole arbiter of how strongly you feel. Theoretically, you could remain in possession of a beard, a basso profondo and a fully working penis while vigorously demanding to be regarded legally as a woman.

Why? Because identity trumps biology. The same principle is evident in the insistence that “men can menstruate too” and the advice from the British Medical Association that the phrase “expectant mothers” should be abandoned in favour of “pregnant people” lest it exclude trans-men with an occupied womb.

Some welcome this “deconstruction of gender”. Others, such as certain radical feminists and social conservatives, are outspoken in their opposition. I would guess most people find it deeply confusing. Indeed, the trans lobby often seems more politicised than many ordinary trans people, who simply wish to get on with their lives in an atmosphere of courtesy. Yet these demands have been accepted by politicians as an automatic good without any debate about the pitfalls.

If identity is a moveable feast that exists purely in self-perception, why is society receptive to those who wish to travel between genders, but not races? Take the case of Rachel Dolezal, who was born white to white parents, but — after changing her appearance — passed herself off as a black activist. When this was discovered she was widely pilloried. Undaunted, she now calls herself Nkechi Amare Diallo and has recently been on a tour of South Africa describing herself as “trans-black”. Her argument has not gained traction among liberals.

Sexual biology, however, is not irrelevant. Those who are biologically male tend to be physically stronger and with the means and capacity to attack or rape women, should they wish to do so. It would be naive to assume that everyone will “self-define” with the purest of intentions, nor is it prejudiced to raise concerns with regard to biological men in all-female areas such as changing rooms.

If we acknowledge that feelings about gender are naturally more fluid in our early years, should society be pushing teenagers to alter their bodies with puberty-blocking “gender reassignment” treatment? Why not seek to broaden our communal vision of what it can mean to be a man or woman? In sport, a competitor with male biology and a legal female identity will have a strong advantage over a biological female — but what will the rules say about their participation? These are complex questions, and it seems curious that, among our political class at least, they are not being broached. Yet pretending controversy doesn’t exist, I fear, won’t act to defuse it.

@mccartney_jenny

I think I got all of it - there are so many bloody ads to navigate.

HamletsSister · 30/07/2017 15:33

Also in today's Sunday Times letter section:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/letters-to-the-editor-8kq6g0pqf?shareToken=53843aa6538c690fd2782351da4151b7

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