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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Gender Self Identification debate continued

617 replies

PoochSmooch · 25/07/2017 07:36

Continuation of the thread from here

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
oldtrees · 30/07/2017 17:33

How many here would agree that the issue isn't actually people identifying as any gender - the issue really is the confusion of gender and sex?

I fully support anyone's desire to present however they want and I'm happy to use whatever pronouns people want.

As I believe gender is a social construct I see no reason we can't have 31 genders - why not? I know some young people for whom being able to call themselves genderqueer seems to be a positive thing in their lives.

But - what I absolutely don't support is the confusion of sex and gender. I don't support people with men's bodies who have been socialised as men, identifying their way into women's sport, support services, safe spaces or statistics or demanding that lesbians treat them as women if they don't want to.

Does anyone else agree with this?

What if there was a campaign that was supportive of trans people's rights to live as any gender they like but campaigning against confusing sex and gender on the grounds that it helps neither dysphoric trans people nor women.

Could we build bridges with gender critical trans people and those who have detransitioned?

Does this exist already?

oldtrees · 30/07/2017 17:36

The point of the campain would be to have it formally recognised that sex and gender are different and should not be confused.

It should be respectful of people's desire to present as they choose and this generation's rejection of traditional gender roles.

jellyfrizz · 30/07/2017 18:04

Yes oldtrees I that is absolutely the problem as I see it; the conflation/confusion of gender and sex.

BigDeskBob · 30/07/2017 18:25

What if there was a campaign that was supportive of trans people's rights to live as any gender they like but campaigning against confusing sex and gender on the grounds that it helps neither dysphoric trans people nor women

I think such a campaign would be classed as transphobic. It creates a divide between women and MTT (or men and ftt). That's not what tra want - Ciswomen are a subset of women, not a class of their own.

oldtrees · 30/07/2017 18:36

I know it's not what TRA want - but I don't think we are going to find a bridge betwen women's rights and the demands of TRAs.

Campaigns tend to work better if you have a simple, utterly reasonable ask. Is this something the public could agree with?

If we emphasised our (genuine!) support of people to identify any way they like, while asking for the gender=sex thing to be at least debated, could it help sway public opinon?

Or at least start to make the public aware of what's going on?

Datun · 30/07/2017 18:53

oldtrees

It's a nice idea, and I'd be behind it

Unfortunately, I think it's gone too far and that ship has sailed.

The trans lobby is incredibly powerful. Compromise is not acceptable.

The mantra 'transwomen are women' is foremost in almost any debate. Even people who don't want the laws changed, will say they are women. As if the word woman is a social category, not a biological one.

It's the devil of a job to try and make the word woman mean biological sex, and not a social category. And, of course, any acceptance that it is a social category, instantly leads to rights based on not that, but biological sex.

Nevertheless, I think it is a good argument to make.

BigDeskBob · 30/07/2017 21:09

But it's not illegal to express gender identity. Anyone can wear whatever they want, and change their name. It might be social unacceptably, but no law is going to make a difference to that.

Women challenged the idea of acceptable clothes by wearing by trousers, not by changing the definition of men and women. I've been around enough art schools to know men who wear anything they like without claiming to be anything other than men. Why can't mtt do the same?

Tra isn't about gender identity, its about changing the definition of women. (I'm not going to pretend that the definition of men will change).

PencilsInSpace · 30/07/2017 21:16

But it's not illegal to express gender identity. Anyone can wear whatever they want, and change their name. It might be social unacceptably, but no law is going to make a difference to that.

It could.

Supposing the Equality Act was amended to protect everybody who was gender non-conforming, no matter what sex they are and no matter how they identify (instead of protecting those undergoing legal gender reassignment)

and at the same time

The exemptions in the EA for single sex services to exclude people of the opposite sex were strengthened?

In non-legalese - let's make the gents safe for transwomen and feminine men.

PencilsInSpace · 30/07/2017 21:27

Completely agree with your analysis oldtrees although there are also serious concerns about the transing of children.

hi6789 · 30/07/2017 23:59

I am hoping that in the UK there may be a more reasoned discussion about the impact of the proposed changes to the law. I want to believe that most transgender people do not want to diminish the rights of women, they just want to be able to live as part of a society who respect the rights of all. This article today has made me feel a bit more positive. Apologies if this has been posted before:amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/30/tories-transgender-debate-justne-greening-gender-recognition-act
I read earlier in the thread about a lobbying group, I would be interested in donating if needed.

PencilsInSpace · 31/07/2017 08:26

I admire your optimism hi6789. Sadly there hasn't been reasoned discussion in the UK so far. Miller dismissed wholesale all the concerns put to her by women's groups and others during the trans equality consultation in 2015.

I agree most trans people probably do just want to get on with life without facing discrimination but also without shitting all over women. That's neither here nor there though, because the people being listened to are the TRA extremists and laws are being proposed (and already changed in other countries) to suit their agenda and not the quiet majority.

That article is actually pretty dismissive. It basically says, sure there are some problems but it'll all work out ok probably and anyway, you're on the wrong side of history.

His characterisation of Miller's interview in the Times on Sunday is hilarious. Have you seen the full text of that interview?

IndominusRex · 31/07/2017 08:34

Copying full text here for info:

SaveMaria Miller gathers up her handbag and makes to leave: “I don’t think I’m happy about this. I think I’ve finished . . . I didn’t realise this was such a stitch-up.” I’ve been questioning Ms Miller about a report on transgender rights she produced last year as chairwoman of the women and equalities committee. The government has just announced that it will go to further consultation this autumn.
Maria Miller gathers up her handbag and makes to leave: “I don’t think I’m happy about this. I think I’ve finished . . . I didn’t realise this was such a stitch-up.” I’ve been questioning Ms Miller about a report on transgender rights she produced last year as chairwoman of the women and equalities committee. The government has just announced that it will go to further consultation this autumn.

Many of its recommendations, to redress hate crime against transgender people, to improve access to NHS services and stop discrimination in employment (as seen in President Trump’s cruel, summary banning of up to 6,600 transgender US military personnel), are widely supported. But one proposal that seeks to change the very definition of “man” and “woman” has far-reaching implications.

Justine Greening, the equalities minister, announced her support this week for changes to the 2004 Gender Recognition Act, echoing calls by Jeremy Corbyn, the Labour leader. At present a person who wishes to change gender legally must be 18, demonstrate they have lived in their chosen gender for two years, have a diagnosis of “gender dysphoria” (a mental disorder whereby a person feels they don’t feel they belong in their biological sex) and be questioned by an expert panel.

The heart of the controversy is the view, espoused by Ms Miller’s report, that switching gender should instead merely be a matter of “self-definition”. A man need only “declare” that he is a woman. Your gender is what you feel it to be: there would be no requirement even to take female hormones or have surgery — about 70 per cent of trans women still have intact male genitals — or even “present” as a woman to be legally female. (Some older trans people are troubled by this, believing that it trivialises and delegitimises their struggles to live in their non-birth gender.)

Furthermore, if the law changes, “gender identity” is likely to become a protected characteristic under equalities legislation: ie if you deny a person is a woman or a man when they claim to be, you are guilty of discrimination or hate crime.

When Ms Miller, 53, released her report in January last year she was surprised that criticism came not from conservatives but, as she put it, “women who purport to be feminists”. This may be because feminists, well versed in sexual politics and long-time supporters of gay rights, are among the few people who can penetrate the arcane, confusing terminology.

Many see potential loopholes and conflicts of rights that put women at risk, giving men access to rare female-only spaces such as single-sex wards, changing rooms and domestic violence refuges, designed to keep them safe and private. It is these concerns I put to Ms Miller in her Basingstoke constituency.

Take this scenario: a man enters a female communal changing area, removes his clothes while women get undressed. Now they have a right to ask him to leave. Under gender self-definition, if he said “I identify as a woman” he would be entitled to stay. This, I stress, is unlikely to be a trans woman — many who use women’s changing rooms every day with discretion and no fuss — but could be a sexual predator exploiting the loophole. (There have been a growing number of cases in the US, including a man in Seattle using women’s pool facilities claiming “the law has changed, I have a right to be here”.) Does Ms Miller not see why women fear a conflict of rights?

“But 50 years ago, maybe ten years ago, people felt very uncomfortable about gay people showing their relationships in public but life has moved on.” This isn’t a question of feelings, however, but of physical safety and privacy which, as the author of another report on sexual abuse, she surely understands?

I show her a photograph of a bearded, male-born American called Danielle Muscato who dresses in men’s suits and ties, has made no attempt to transition but nonetheless “identifies as female” and insists on living in a women’s homeless shelter. On International Women’s Day he tweeted: “Some women have penises. If you’re bothered by this, you can suck my dick.”Alex Drummond is a lush-bearded British psychotherapist who claims to be a woman, without any transition, who is “expanding the bandwidth of gender.”

These people should be free from all abuse and discrimination, but do they have the right to women’s spaces? “There will be individuals who will try to use this as an abuse of the system but you cannot disregard the rights of 600,000 people in this country,” Ms Miller says, referring to an estimate of people who express unhappiness with their birth gender. But can you ignore the rights of 30 million women? “No. And nobody’s suggesting that that’s the case.”

So do you think that women and girls should have a right to object to male-bodied individuals undressing among them. “How an individual presents themselves is really up to them,” she says. “Nobody is saying this is an easy set of decisions. I think that is a legitimate part of the consultation.”

Ms Miller says that self-definition is misunderstood “as some amateurish way of trying to recognise somebody’s change. In our report we made it very clear that this would not simply be somebody being able to pull a form off the internet, sign it and call themselves a woman because that would be open to abuse.” Her committee envisaged each person receiving “psychological support . . . to make sure that they’re making the right decision for them” instead of “this quasi-medicalised panel which has brought great distress to transgender people”. She would not confirm that the new self-definition process would ever query an application.

How does she think this rule will effect the operation of women’s domestic violence refuges, several of which submitted concerns to her inquiry that clients would be distressed having fled brutal men if male-bodied individuals were granted access. In Toronto, Christopher Hambrook claimed to be a trans woman to access a refuge then raped residents. “These spaces carry out a risk assessment before individuals are allowed to use them and those that pose a risk to safety are not necessarily one gender.” But 90 per cent of violent crime and 98 per cent of sexual crime is committed by men. Trans women, such as Davina Ayrton, who raped a 15-year-old girl, have been convicted of offences seldom committed by natal females. Would self-identification mean these crimes would be registered as committed by women, skewing the figures? “It should be registered in the gender of the person when they committed the crime.” This would mean that if Katie Brannen, charged with twice raping a man in South Shields, is convicted that crime would be recorded on female statistics even though legally women cannot commit rape.

Sport is another problematic area: self-identification could destroy women’s competitions, allowing former-men with greater musculature and testosterone to dominate. In New Zealand a weightlifter, Laurel Hubbard, has broken national records; in Canada the mountain biker Michelle Dumaresq dominated for years. “Those are already issues that professional bodies have to deal with. And again that is something which needs to be looked at in significant detail.”

I ask her about school sports. In Connecticut Andraya Yearwood, a male-bodied, moustachioed 15-year-old trans girl, has won state championships although she would have finished last in the boys’ competition. Does Ms Miller think this fair to the girl athletes? “Well, I think it’s a bit of a difficult one to answer because boys are not going through gender reassignment when they’re at school.” But what would you say to the girls who lost? “It’s a very difficult one to answer . . .”

She adds: “What I think we’re touching on here is that trans issues are something that still strike a nerve in British society.” Compiling her report she was moved by young trans folk “just trying to get on with their lives in a quiet manner . . . The idea of individuals being not of one gender or another is not a new thing.”

Yet this very idea of “non-binary” or “gender fluidity” is challenged by feminists. Because it assumes that being female is a narrow category: involving pink, make-up, girlie pursuits as opposed to the male world of noise, fun and muddy sports. Isn’t the epidemic of girls wanting to transition — they make up 1,000 out of the Tavistock clinic’s 1,400 referrals — a rebellion against society’s rigid gender strictures rather than a sign that they were “born in the wrong body” and require hormones? This is around the point at which Ms Miller threatens to leave. She relents and we talk a little longer. Although Ms Miller as equalities minister guided gay marriage through parliament, she is at heart a home counties conservative who in 2007 voted against regulations to stop discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation. She voted to lower the abortion limit to 20 weeks and for a Nadine Dorries amendment to stop abortion providers such as Marie Stopes giving counselling.

She looks alarmed when I ask about these stances and instead seizes on the government’s decision — pushed by Labour’s Stella Creasy — to fund NHS abortions of women in Northern Ireland. “It is a sticking plaster for the short term. There should be equal rights for women across the UK.” But wouldn’t this mean overriding the devolved assembly, whose major party the DUP is in coalition with the Tories? “I think this should be seen as a human rights issue and I’m glad it is in front of the Supreme Court.”

What does she say to those who believe the government’s sudden announcement of trans reform is to counter bad publicity garnered by allying with the anti-gay marriage DUP or to win young votes. “Absolutely ludicrous!” she cries.

She says that her experience as a woman and a mother who has faced discrimination and sexism has made her receptive to the rights of minority groups such as trans people and their families. She puts the concerns of feminists about material changes to their rights and safety into the same category as religious objections, like those of the Christian bakers who refused to make a cake for a gay couple. “There are always jagged edges to the law which create tensions, and we are going into new territory here.”

IndominusRex · 31/07/2017 08:39

Basically, Miller recognises and understands that this is harmful to women, but doesn't care.

Anlaf · 31/07/2017 08:41

Crikey- fame of sorts

the idea has been met with anger and shock in some forums including parenting website Mumsnet, where the latest in a series of threads attracted more than 1,000 comments in two days.

Features posts from previous thread

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40713645

hi6789 · 31/07/2017 11:02

Yes I read that Maria Miller interview previously and was appalled that she thought that answering questions on public safety was a 'stitch up'. PencilsInSpace I agree that people being listened to are the TRA extremists and laws are being proposed (and already changed in other countries) to suit their agenda and not the quiet majority.The guardian article mentioned that it is nonsense to dismiss biological sex, before it seemed that any discussion was being shut down by cries of 'bigot'. I am trying to remain positive that if awareness of this bill is spread then the quiet majority will find their voice so the rights of all are protected. Although I am aware that threats against people who speak out are continuing:twitter.com/CenteringWomen/status/891832802626424833

velourvoyageur · 31/07/2017 11:14

I don't believe that one should be able to legally identify as a female. I also believe that we need to be taking a two-pronged approach when decided if someone qualifies as a woman. A baby with female sex organs and who is not intersex will always, in 100% of cases, grow up to be a woman. Obviously this is the case even if by some miracle she isn't exposed to the sort of gender crap that every child everywhere is exposed to.

However, I do not believe that sex organs can be the only qualifying factor wrt if someone is said to be a legal woman or not in the case where a male person takes HRT and inverts his penis into an approximation of a vagina, as this will only ever happen after he has been exposed to the structural patriarchy that is gender (if this medical intervention happens sooner it is abuse of an infant, clearly).
I am certainly not saying that women need gender (which is an artificial, imposed state) to be women. We're talking about the legal definition of woman here, which has very far reaching implications. What I am saying is that in a world where cultural and patriarcharcal structures exist, shared experience must be taken into account, as women use the insight they have gained into their condition to improve their lot. We must protect institutions and positions where this insight would be useful by keeping them female-only. Because there are women who need certain services, and these are also staffed by legally recognised women, access to these roles must be protected by protecting how this legal recognition is decided. For example, wrt the much-cited case of male counsellors dealing with female rape victims. A transwoman with surgery will never understand what it is to be a woman in this culture, as it is impossible for them to experience the fundamental element of womanhood in 2017: we have no choice but to be women. A girl under ten in India is raped every 13 hours: this is not something she can opt out of – in this world, her body, her sex organs, predispose her to this treatment, and she cannot preclude it by announcing that she identifies as male. The very fact that womanhood is a transwoman's choice disqualifies them from ever knowing what it is to be a woman (I do believe that awareness of one's condition, in social and cultural groups, is essential for participating in response to unfairness perpetuated against one's social group).
*The fact that we cannot opt out of being female should of course be meaningless and inconsequential but unfortunately, today, this is our great disadvantage.
*Link to India stat: www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-40753409

For me, pronouns refer to sex. However to facilitate discussion and not get people's backs up from the off I am prepared to use neutral pronouns such as 'them'. I personally don't give a fuck if someone misgenders me.

Wrt public loos, I think this can sometimes be a red herring. I do think though that the term 'gender neutral' can be very misleading and would prefer 'sex neutral', as this is what is being asked for. Surely by trans reasoning public loos are already gender neutral, as a male loo will be used by both trans and non-trans men.

When will people realise that gender is a multi-billion pound industry? Gender sells. It is sold to children and to adults in the form of consumer goods. Why does such a culture prevail, even though it's clearly bollocks? Because it makes so much damn money. That this madness is not being halted is precisely because doing so would not be in the interests of this very powerful, rich industry. The idea of trans pushes the idea that femaleness is acquired through outward presentation - it's brilliant for the makeup and skincare industry, as what they see as truly female (perfectly flawless, smooth etc) are unattainable ideals and this means that the longevity of women's use as consumers is pretty much lifelong.
This of course isn't the only industry or powerful group massively profiting from trans ideas about the sexes - I would like to see the NHS explain why patients identifying as trans are reporting that they are getting HRT pushed at them instead of specialised and prolonged talking therapy.

Thank you for the full text.

velourvoyageur · 31/07/2017 11:22

I thought the BBC article was good but I'm still banging my head against the wall at the use of 'gender' as if it refers to woman/man.

terrylene · 31/07/2017 12:04

I thought the BBC article was an improvement on their previous stance which seems to be anything to do with transgender politics is all cool and ok, so don't bother questioning it.

I think the gender/sex thing is a lost cause amongst the general public. Everyone seems to have embraced gender as an alternative word for sex that is not 'rude'. It would take an earthquake to turn the tide. However, we still need the difference for clarity of thought. The use of gender where they mean sex makes it nearly impossible to know what the hell is going on (Like using vagina instead of vulva can lead to some Confused until you know what the hell they are talking about eg hair).

nauticant · 31/07/2017 12:05

oldtrees touches on something I've been thinking about.

As far as I'm concerned, gender in and of itself is pretty meaningless. It's the societal expectations of what that means that are significant. I don't think that gender needs to have a fixed relationship with sex, so long as it is understood that sex does not change.

If there's to be major reform in this area then my choice would be for individuals to be registered with their sex and their gender as separate characteristics. Sex would be as defined by biology and gender would be defined as: gender (masculine or feminine) aligns with sex, gender is in opposition to sex, or other (being one of 57 genders, parents choosing not to assign a gender at birth, "I am unique" etc). Then people can cheerfully chop and change their gender but their sex stays constant. And it would be their sex which enables access to single sex spaces.

Well, that's my daydream. Obviously to some such a proposal would be worse than actual genocide.

nauticant · 31/07/2017 12:14

Oh, I meant to add. What this approach would be seeking to do is:

  1. to use a change in the law to provide the additional benefit of clarifying the difference between sex and gender;
  2. to do the PR job of saying "look, endless freedom, you can take your gender to infinity and beyond if you fancy"; and
  3. to present something that the public would be able to look at and think "well, that is much clearer than me having to believe that a man was transformed into a woman".
VestalVirgin · 31/07/2017 12:35

If there's to be major reform in this area then my choice would be for individuals to be registered with their sex and their gender as separate characteristics.

Eh, I don't think gender identities should be registered at all, to be honest. They are pretty meaningless. I would agree to doing this as a means of placating the translobby, if the translobby didn't have complete invasion and erasure of female spaces as its goal.

However, as there IS no placating the translobby except full-on, 100% misogyny and males having access to women everywhere and always, I see it as pointless to campaign for that.

What if there was a campaign that was supportive of trans people's rights to live as any gender they like but campaigning against confusing sex and gender on the grounds that it helps neither dysphoric trans people nor women

But that's what radical feminists have always been doing! Confused
Feminism has always been supportive of men wearing whatever clothes they like and doing whatever stereotypically feminine things they want.

Transactivists hate, hate, hate radical feminists, and trust me, it is not because they are in any way mistaken about radical feminists' tolerance of butch lesbians or feminine gay men ... especially considering that many radfems ARE butch lesbians.

nauticant · 31/07/2017 12:51

Eh, I don't think gender identities should be registered at all, to be honest.

Neither do I but if gender is going to be given legal significance (ie If there's to be major reform in this area ), and to be honest it looks like that's the way things are heading, then I'd prefer to see it implemented in a way which would safeguard sex as a non-muddled characteristic.

PencilsInSpace · 31/07/2017 13:00

What legal significance could 'gender' be given that would not adversely affect sex-based rights and protections?

nauticant · 31/07/2017 13:10

I think that giving legal significance to gender would adversely affect sex-based rights and protections. However, that doesn't mean it can't happen.

Datun · 31/07/2017 13:21

nauticant

I understand you are trying to separate out sex and gender. And you want them to have a different significance. But I don't understand the 'legal rights' argument because gender is merely a preference for how you appear. Unless you can think of some other way gender needs to be sanctioned somehow.

I'm probably misinterpreting what you're saying. How would ratifying 'gender' as 'something' actually play out. What would it do? Or mean?