Gender Self Identification debate continued

[PoochSmooch]

Continuation of the thread from here

"I don't think gender identities should be registered at all, to be honest."

Neither do I, it would be like registering what your favourite colour is - total irrelevant. If anything it would be used to erode sex segregated spaces, as part of the 'compromise' we are expected to make.

Unless you can think of some other way gender needs to be sanctioned somehow.

I'm not saying that gender needs to be sanctioned somehow. I'm saying that gender may be sanctioned in any case. Whether or not we like it. I was just wondering that if we end up with a shit sandwich what garnish it could be served with.

Have just e-mailed my MP (leader of SNP) so will pass on any reply. Scotland seems to have decided to support this too so will copy it to MSP.

A more comprehensive, yet accurate, legal description could be

Sex: male or female
Other: transwoman/transman etc.

At least that way police reports could accurately describe who they were looking for.

Medical professionals would have an instant understanding, both in reports and in person.

And employers, airport officials, etc could be aware of the sensitivity protocols.

But I won't hold my breath.

As someone who has struggled with gender identity lately I find this thread very interesting.

I have thought about my own identity at length and I have to say I have some sympathy with those that would like to legally change gender.

You have to consider it the way round that if you were forced to be known as a man when you're a woman or a woman if you're a man and how insulting and frustrating that would feel. In essence for trans people that is exactly how they feel and is all this is about.

No one is trying to take anything away from women or men in doing this but trying to be sympathetic towards who someone naturally feels they are. This is already something that can be done and they are only talking about simplifying the process so it is less invasive. It is my understanding that it gets such wide political support as it is not voting in favour of being able to change your legal gender but rather the inavsiveness of how this is assessed and achieved.

I do though understand the concerns you may all have however I have to say a lot of this thread comes across as attacking and quite confrontational towards a very sensitive subject that a lot of people feel they can't talk about. In the wider scheme of things I feel this is going to discourage conversation and not help it.

Sorry if this is upsets anybody but I'm just calling it as I see it.

You have to consider it the way round that if you were forced to be known as a man when you're a woman or a woman if you're a man and how insulting and frustrating that would feel. In essence for trans people that is exactly how they feel and is all this is about.

I am a woman. That's why I have periods, which I don't especially enjoy, but it is a fact. If the whole world reliably treated me as a man in terms of gender, and gave me all that sweet, sweet male privilege, I would have no problem with that AT ALL.

No one is trying to take anything away from women or men in doing this

WHAT? That's a flat out lie. They are trying to take our privacy, our dignity and our safety.
Our chances at winning at almost all competive sports.

Our very ability to talk about how we are oppressed under patriarchy.

That is what recent politics do, that is what transactivism does.
Not all trans people may agree with it, but it is what is done to women. It just is, you won't be able to talk it away.

... I am very willing to believe that men would be rather upset if they were treated as women. That is because women are oppressed under patriarchy.

But as a woman? Sorry, you don't really understand what being an ordinary woman feels like if you think I'd be upset if I were treated consistently as man when it comes to social expectations, wages, et cetera. (I'd be upset to have taken the protections that I need because of my SEX away from me, which is EXACTLY why I oppose those self-identification laws. Are you unable to understand that? This is what genderism does. It DOES treat women like males, by pretending we don't need safety, that we would stand any chance competing against males in sports and so on and so forth. This is being done to women, and you are in favour of it, by the tone of your post)

I concur with everything Vestal just said!! How on earth can anyone in sane mind NOT see this trans-activism shite as utterly abhorrent and against women????????

Well exactly. You want a law where you get treated like a man? Go for it. Because the converse is then true. Men will be treated as women in sport, prisons, rape refuges, scholarships, hospitals, changing rooms.

You, on the other hand? You want to access male prisons? Male toilets? You want to compete against men in sport? Use their locker rooms, changing facilities, go on the men's ward?

Because the one thing you won't get is male privilege. You won't get a 20% increase in pay. You won't suddenly be in the the class that never needs an abortion, has a miscarriage, can't get pregnant, not be raped.

Yes LastGirl agree.

Because the one thing you won't get is male privilege. You won't get a 20% increase in pay. You won't suddenly be in the the class that never needs an abortion, has a miscarriage, can't get pregnant, not be raped.

Yeah, this.

Genderism does not benefit women (or females with whatever gender identity)in any way whatsoever.

It just benefits males who want to rape us, and who want us out of sports. That's it, basically.

^^ What they said.

This is what I mean though.

The immediate reaction to my post is about male privilege and about how men can not get raped, women have periods...etc.

Men don't have everything quite so easy either, why do so many young men commit suicide? I am a man, I am not a rapist, I earn £25,500 and there are women in my office earn more money than I do and we do the same job.

I have the absolute uttermost respect for women, what my fiance has been through to give birth, my family members who have suffered miscarriages and abortions. I have absolutely no idea how it is to go through that other than it must be absolute hell. I understand that I can never understand.

Bu please understand that it is the same the other way round. Men don't have everything so easy either. There are a lot of problems on both sides of the fence and we should face these together in a level headed way and not by attacking each other.

I do have sympathy though for those that don't identify with the gender there were born with. In the same way i don't understand what women have to suffer, we also can't understand what those with gender dysphoria have to suffer and that is something we all have to accept.

"It just benefits males who want to rape us"

Now I don't know a lot about being trans, but I'm pretty sure their main purpose in life is not to rape us.

Notoneofyou apologies I think we posted at similar times.

My first post was badly written. I do get the concerns, however your response is one of the few calmly written ones and a lot are just plain attacking and for those that have questioned their own gender it can be very difficult to read.

Hopefully my other post is a bit better written but I do not wish to upset anyone, I think this a very sensitive area and a lot of things need to be considered and discussed properly.

Now I don't know a lot about being trans, but I'm pretty sure their main purpose in life is not to rape us.

So, what? Do you honestly think that rapists will look at this law and think "Oh, I never really felt like a woman inside, guess that means I still must stay out of women's spaces, because lying is bad and I would never do it"?

If yes, then I can't help you, and you should probably be seeing a psychiatrists for your delusions.

Please and I honestly mean this. Can you explain to me why this law will lead to someone being raped?

Because someone like this:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2993393-Woman-caught-with-extreme-animal-porn-collection?pg=2&order=#prettyPhoto

Will end up locked up in a prison cell with a (very vulnerable) woman.

Though hopefully someone will be along to explain it much better in a minute.

Right I get that I was a bit confused beforehand!

I don't believe we should have men allowed to access womens prisons. That would have problems, however there should perhaps be areas of prisons that you can voluntarily enter as you self identify as the opposite sex.

Also in regards to legally changing gender I do think it should be in a way where it states sex at birth and self identify as for the above reason and for things such as medical care.

Rockhopper - if you're striggling with your identity, this essay by Jamie Shupe - first legally recognised NB person might be of interest. It's long but very interesting.

youthtranscriticalprofessionals.org/2017/07/22/you-cant-feel-like-a-girl-an-essay-by-jamie-shupe/#comments

Although as a side not, an abhorrent crime is an abhorrent crime and should it matter if they are a man or a woman? In terms of how it is reported?

Haven't given it any thought but would it make a difference?

Can you explain to me why this law will lead to someone being raped?

No, if you don't understand how giving males, especially criminal males, access to women where previously they were separated because of common sense, causes males being able to rape more, I really cannot explain it to you.

Men don't have everything quite so easy either, why do so many young men commit suicide?
Because society dictates genderised behaviour for males, such that they don't talk to people, try not to cry in front of their mates and generally not look 'soft'. Males would benefit from the destruction of gender too.

bambambini that's very king thank you, I don't struggle so much now but I had a period of my life quite recently that made me extremely confused about a lot of things.

Turns out I was overthinking a lot as I tend to do and that I am not trans, I don't subscribe to a lot of this new age stuff about their being dozens of different genders, ultimately I am a man but sometimes like to be able to express myself in a more feminine way. I see this as no different to when a woman may want to wear trousers and a shirt or go watch the rugby or some other stereotypical "man" thing. Of course it isn't but society would dictate it is more often than not.

should it matter if they are a man or a woman? In terms of how it is reported?
If you want to study and analyse patterns of behaviour, you need accurate statistics about who is performing those behaviours.