DD3 to DM "you've got a big nose, Granny"

[Applesandpears55]

So my DD who is 3.5 looked at my mum this morning and said "Granny, you've got a big nose". DM said to her "well thanks, that's actually very rude" in a very defensive and unhappy manner. DDis very sensitive and was upset by this. She frequently says things like "mummy, you have big feet" and things like "mummy, that boy has a black face" in reference to a boy at nursery. I tell her that people come in all shapes and sizes and we're all different and that's a good thing.

I had a chat to DM and explained that she would say any adult has a big nose as it's bigger than hers. She's just observing. My mum is a teacher and says it' unacceptable for my daughter to say that. She also said that if I said to my daughter that she had a big nose, she'd be upset by that so she's old enough to know it's not nice. I disagree. My mum is now very upset with me and said that i always think I'm right (which I don't). So AIBU or is my mum.

I agree with serf, the way you are currently handling this OP is not stopping your daughter from being rude. I think the point your mother was trying to make was that your DD should not be making comments on other people's physical characteristics or appearance!

We learn by being told
Plus seeing someone's emotional reaction too, surely? She may not have meant to be rude but she was, which upset your mum. Hopefully what she's learning is not to comment on how people look as sometimes it can really upset them. I don't see the issue here.

My 6 year old tells me I've a big nose, funny eyebrows etc. It's funny. Lighten up people
I'm curious to know if there's an age where "funny" comments are considered insults.

Story from my childhood.

Probably I was 4 or 5. It was Christmas day.

Halfway through the morning I was confronted by my parents who told me I that my great-aunt , who was staying, said that I had spoken to her in a 'very rude' way. My punishment would be that I would have to stay in my room all day - apart from meals where I could join them.

I was baffled as I had no memory of being even slightly rude. I wasn't a spontaneously rude child, though I would argue back.

'What did I say?' I asked

My father said, 'You know very well what you said?'

And that was that. Christmas in my room apart from at lunch. They let me come out in the evening but by then I was thoroughly confused - and quite angry.

To this day, I have know idea what I said. But looking back, it seems the most likely thing was that I had innocently referred to her in the course of some conversation as 'fat' or 'old'. She would have been in her late 60s and would have had a sort of saggy stomach at around my eye level.

It was the beginning of the end...

And just on the basis of your responses on this thread, OP, you could come across as always thinking you're right. I'm sure you don't think that, but you have just restated your case rather than taking on board the quite sizeable number of comments that say your mother was right. Probably best to move on from defending your DD/your parenting and give your mum some sympathy - it's not nice being told you have a big nose, and however many times you say it, the 'bigger than a child's nose' interpretation isn't v convincing. These comments can really hurt whether intentional or not.

(being told you have a big nose is not at comparable to being told you have big feet btw)

Magdalen

I'm not sure that I understand the point that you are trying to make.

Magdelen that's horrible but not really comparable with the OP's situation.

I'd say DD has maybe just made a mistake about the rules with this person.

Even from a young age, you would tell a child they don't say things like that to other people because it may cause offence.

However, in the home, talking to mum & dad, the rules are different. I'm not going to get offended about my nose. I'm going to take it on the chin nose, maybe talk about it but point out it shouldn't be said to other people. But I'm not going to be upset, because I'm a child-rearing adult who expects to deal with this kind of thing.

Your DD perhaps thought she was in the home talking to another child-rearing adult like you. Turned out your DM does not wish to be treated like that. Child can remember that for future reference - watch your words with Granny.

Thing is op, while it's admirable you want to instill values in your daughter about accepting differences in appearance, society and individuals aren't equipt to be your emotionless teaching aids. Most people have a feature they're not happy with and dislike so will not take kindly to being drawn into a frank conversation over it with a child. Three is pushing it for not knowing better and definitely too old for a parent to not acknowledge a comment that has caused upset.

I know someone with a six year old who happily points out my skin condition every time I see them (which I go to great lengths to cover up and clearly don't wish to draw attention to), not once have they stepped in and stopped her or backed up my deflection attempts. I judge them massively and actively dislike being around her because of it.

My point being, socially you're not doing her any favours to not point out that personal comments should only ever be kind, observations don't need stating otherwise. People already know.

I think my point was that it is easy for children - who don't know complex social rules - to unintentionally offend people of their grandparents generation who have quite fixed ideas about what is 'wrong',.

But by over-reacting parents can make matters worse.

I suppose ideally parents mediate. 'My daughter won't have meant to offend you, but I'll have a word so she understands that it's not a comment you felt comfortable with. Then I'm sure she won't say it again.'

She didn't mean to be rude but your mother was upset and right to correct her. She was sharp because the comment was hurtful. A 3-year-old needs to learn we don't comment on the size of body parts because people feel upset.

Just to clarify. I haven't told my daughter before that she can't comment on people's appearance. After so many people saying I should, I thought maybe I should. Hence my comment upthread thanking people for the feedback.

My issue though with that is that I don't want her to think a small nose is better than a big nose or a small tummy is better than a big tummy. If she had said "granny, you have a little nose" would my mum have been upset? Would people say she was rude? I see this as a reflection of flaws in our society and I don't want her to think along these lines.

Is she allowed to say, "you've got brown eyes" to someone? Where does it end? How is she meant to know which things are perceived as nice things and which things are perceived as insults? Is she allowed to complement someone on their appearance? Just interested to hear others views on this as I'm questioning myself and my views based on the feedback here.

MagdalenNoName yes I really agree with your earlier comment that we do make personal remarks a lot. We can make nice ones - and even then, there are all sorts of extra rules. E.g. "I love your necklace, is it new?" = good. "your breasts look really round" = not appropriate for most situations.
It is not as simple as the rule "no personal remarks". No wonder children get confused!
I feel the same about "please" and "thank you". Parents try to teach the simple rule of saying "please" and "thank you" all the time, but it does not really capture what socially competent adults know. You don't always have to say these words - the right tone or look can be enough, and the words without the right tone or look don't really work.
Similarly for talking to strangers. I often talk to strangers. The rules are complicated.
I don't think the OP's dd needs blaming (just guidance) but I still think that the OP's dm needs a hug. Who wants to be silly old big-nosed hasn't-got-a-clue grandma in this situation?

My DS is the same age and I'm spending a fair bit of time at the present telling him not to do x y or z because it's rude and praising him when he's polite.

He's old enough to understand and it is gradually working. Far better to put a stop to it now than try to once he's been used to getting away with it.

Plus, personal comments, especially to adults, won't go down well in pre school or school so it'll make his path there smoother if I can get it to sink in now.

Maybe it's helpful to talk about the way children might compare themselves to other children. So one child might envy a toy or possession that another child has. And feel a bit sad if that toy is not something they can have for themselves.

So it's not that one kind of nose is good or bad. But for some reason, some adults might have wanted - or still want - to have a different nose.

And a comment about their nose, might remind them of that

Can I also say she is very kind and well mannered on the whole. I make a big emphasis on manners.

OP, I think you've got a good response here.

The thing is, she's too little to understand the "everyone's different and diversity is great" explanation at an intellectual level.

Little children need to start with simple responses. You could have said "DD that's not nice, you've hurt Grannie's feelings, see how her face is sad now. Why don't you give Grannie a big kiss and tell her you love her to make it up."

Your "discussing" with DD and your mum comes across as defensive. Yes, she's only little and she doesn't mean it. But as others have said, she can learn.

Commenting about race is trickier but with that you can use your "everyone is different" line and follow up with " shall we see if the little boy wants to play?"

Op x-posted. Yes, exactly - it is so complicated!

Plus there was a thread on here a day or so ago with children "complimenting" peoples' looks with funny effects. E.g. "mummy you're getting a really good moustache now". From the child's perspective perhaps this was a good thing, in which case telling a child you can only make positive personal comments won't really work!

I think that you just need to let her learn from peoples' reactions and watching and copying you and everyone else. It is a long process and I don't think a single rule covers it. Obviously she knows that Grandma didn't like that comment about her nose, so that's a useful piece of data about grandma and noses at least. So long as your dd is not really upset, then I don't think you need to do much for your dd else except be ready to deflect/help her with the next bit.

Btw we (older children than yours - but it might work with yours too)have a rule (as I guess lots of people do) that if you notice something about someone and want to talk about it but think that it might not go down well, then you have to wait and we'll talk about it later.

"all the better to smell you with"

sure she wasn't parsing Little Red Riding Hood!

Thanks Magdalen, I think you are right. There's a huge difference between letting a child know that what they said was hurtful and what happened to you. It's down to effective parenting in both ways.

Apples
I think you are over thinking this not judging based on appearance. Presumably you know that people can be sensitive about particular aspects of appearance? You get those social complexities and can pick up on cues? Your job is to help her understand those.

Would you say to someone 'you've got a big nose' or 'you are fat' or 'you have got brown eyes' or you are wearing a red dress'? If you wouldn't say it to someone, help her to understand it's not OK for her to say it. I'm not sure why that concept is so challenging for you.

For those saying that their kids says they have funny eyes etc, just be warned - we used to joke about me having a fat bum and belly (even though I'm not) until DS (who in fairness is on the autism spectrum so doesn't always understand rules or humour) told a woman in the supermarket that she was fat - which she wasn't either. It can bite you in the (not very fat) bum.

YANBU! Your DD is only 3 and she wasn't being deliberately hurtful. Your DM is the grown up - if her feelings were hurt she could tactfully explain, but by upsetting your daughter in response to an innocent comment she's in the wrong.

OP, you asked about good and bad adjectives. There are three groups:

Nice words: pretty, kind, lovely, awesome.
Nasty words: ugly, bad, horrible, stupid

And then there are words that could offend, you could call these "difficult" words like: fat, thin, big, small, hairy, bald, pale, dark.

You can teach your daughter to only comment when she's sure what she's saying is a "nice" word.

As a small child I would have hated to be told 'Give Grannie a big kiss and tell her you love her.'

Suppose you don't particularly feel like kissing Grannie.

I think just taking care not to upset Grannie again.

If one of my adult friends who knows the social rules, says something snide about the way I look I'll be upset. But if a very small child says something tactless I would hope I'd be grown up enough to take it.

Though yes, I might say to a parent, 'Oh dear, you know I've always been a bit neurotic about my nose. If you can tell X not to mention it, that would be lovely.'

daily she is 3. She has only recently started noticing that we aren't all exactly the same. I'm guiding her and I think maybe not commenting on appearance is the best way to word it to her, although I think that's a difficult concept at 3 and it's a time when I'd like her to understand that our differences are what make us all unique.

NB. 'Grannie, your nose is awesome!'

Do we think that will work?