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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Should babies be assigned a sex at birth or choose their own

245 replies

bambambini · 02/07/2017 20:12

Is that where we are heading? Following a twitter conversation that touched on identity politics. what do folk really make of this stuff? mobile.twitter.com/AsiaKateDillon/status/881501055657414659

Should babies be assigned a sex at birth or choose their own
OP posts:
WhiteMane · 03/07/2017 12:26

The effect of it isn't nonsense. The effect of it us very real and very serious

nauticant · 03/07/2017 14:37

I dont know how it works for male-female trans, but a female-male transperson I know was so desperately broody that he considered stopping with the male hormones

As was said by one of the most well-known trans people (MtT) on the planet:

Q: I read a Twitter chat you did where you said the hardest part of being trans is not being able to have your own biological child. Why does that stand out now, even though you’re so young?

A: It’s really hard for me to look at that because with such an amazing mom, I always wanted to be the greatest mom ever. People say, "Oh, you can always adopt," and I completely agree with that. I can adopt. But, like, I’ll never have that moment where she comes out of my vag and I can say, "That’s my baby." But since my sister has my same DNA, I’m convincing her to carry the baby for me.

Q: Oh, good! It can come out of her vag.

A; We’ll take my hubby’s sperm and throw it in there and fertilize it.

The views of his sister were not presented in the interview.

BeyondDrinksAndKnowsThings · 03/07/2017 15:00

Ms Jennings - handmaid Ofjazz

VladmirsPoutine · 03/07/2017 15:06

I've just come across this article. This might very well become a 'thing' from now on:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40480386

The crux of it:

An eight-month old Canadian baby has been issued a health card without a gender marker, in what could be the first case in the world.
Parent Kori Doty - a non-binary transgender person who identifies as neither male nor female - aims to allow the child to discover their own gender.

BlurryFace · 03/07/2017 15:06

Jazz is pretty messed up, he complains of boys at his school not treating him like the other girls (not seeing him as a potential partner) and asked his dad how much he's seen of his mother's vagina. Entitled with few boundaries, I feel bad for him and the fact this stuff about him is getting plastered everywhere.

BlurryFace · 03/07/2017 15:13

My FtM brother thinks this sort of thing as bullshit, though he has 0 to do with trans activism and is stealth where he now lives (passes all the time, doesn't out himself as trans even to new friends/acquaintances) which used to be the aim of most transgender people. Now though, it's often "I don't care if you can see my five o clock shadow and poor wig, I've been on estrogen for five days so I'm going in this changing room/women's shelter, fuck you!"

hackmum · 03/07/2017 15:25

The excellent Victoria Smith on Twitter wrote this response:

"Sex is randomly assigned at birth, straight after you've emerged from the body of someone who was randomly assigned femaleness at birth."

dodobookends · 03/07/2017 15:29

Sex isn't assigned at birth - it is determined at the moment of conception. X+X or X+Y.

VestalVirgin · 03/07/2017 15:32

Ms Jennings - handmaid Ofjazz

Sums it up perfectly.

And I really, really, really hope it is not going to happen. If only because there won't be a "hubby". Because men are allowed boundaries. But probably he'll be able to find a closeted gay man.

I pity Jazz as obviously his parents and other adults weren't honest with him, about just what going on puberty blockers would mean for his future, but the way he treats his sister is disgusting.

My FtM brother thinks this sort of thing as bullshit, though he has 0 to do with trans activism and is stealth where he now lives (passes all the time, doesn't out himself as trans even to new friends/acquaintances) which used to be the aim of most transgender people.

It is certainly safer for FtM transitioners.

This "I look like a man, I behave like a man, I am actually male, and I demand access to women's spaces" is something only males can do - they can threaten violence if not allowed in.

In fact, all the allegedly trans people I ever heard of who never made any changes to their body and don't intend to, are male.

There's a couple nonbinary identified women who just bind their breasts, but I haven't come across one actually claiming to be male and demanding access to male spaces. In fact, I have read a couple of MtFs write that they wait with using the men's facilities until they pass.

VestalVirgin · 03/07/2017 15:33

"Sex is randomly assigned at birth, straight after you've emerged from the body of someone who was randomly assigned femaleness at birth."

That's satire, is it?

Because I can imagine some transactivists saying that same thing without the tiniest bit of irony.

hackmum · 03/07/2017 15:39

Yes, it is satire! She is very good on the insanity of some transactivism.

Sadly, you are probably right about transactivists saying that and meaning it.

hackmum · 03/07/2017 15:43

Another thing that bugs me about this is they don't just claim that sex is "assigned", which is clearly wrong, they always say "it's assigned by a doctor" - as if there is some weird kind of conspiracy by doctors to accord themselves a false authority by going round arbitrarily assigning a sex to newborn babies. Whereas in fact, as a woman who has just given birth, you're perfectly capable of looking at your new baby yourself and identifying its sex.

BlurryFace · 03/07/2017 15:53

Here's a transwoman poking fun at the mental/linguistic gymnastics the modern trans movement does.

heythisisrya.com/2017/06/28/why-we-no-longer-know-how-babies-are-made/

PolkadotsAndMoonbeams · 03/07/2017 16:04

MsTRWQ (hope that's right!) I have no idea what we'd do in ballroom dancing with transgender people: we're still arguing what the fairest way is to let same sex couples compete!

Female/female couples have a height and stride length disadvantage compared to m/f couples, while m/m couples have an advantage. But there are lots more f/f couples than m/m ones, so while a separate f/f category works, m/m often doesn't have enough competitors. A same sex category that puts m/m against f/f gives men a massive advantage.

Add being transgender into the mix and I think we might all give up and go home!

VestalVirgin · 03/07/2017 16:24

Whereas in fact, as a woman who has just given birth, you're perfectly capable of looking at your new baby yourself and identifying its sex.

Exactly.
I heard they stole the "assigned at birth" rhetorics from intersex people, which makes sense - if a woman looks at her baby and says "Uh, this looks weird, I don't know what it is", then a doctor could say "Let's just cut off some bits and call it a girl." That would be assigning a gender.
And that's done by doctors, as they are the ones who get to cut off bits.

For everyone born with clearly female or male genitals, sex isn't assigned.

I have no idea what we'd do in ballroom dancing with transgender people: we're still arguing what the fairest way is to let same sex couples compete!

Huh. I always thought ballroom dancing was (if at all judged on a competitive level) judged according to aesthetic.
How does stride length come into it? Do longer strides get better marks? And why? Are they deemed objectively more aesthetic? Confused
Surely it cannot be about the distance covered by the dancing couple?
In this specific case I'd suggest to change the rules so that those male advantages don't exist anymore.

Datun · 03/07/2017 17:50

hackmum

I believe it's now CAMAB for transwomen. Coercively assigned male at birth.

Which adds a somewhat sinister element on top of an already ridiculous premise.

PolkadotsAndMoonbeams · 03/07/2017 18:15

Vestal, it's because you are partially judged on ease of movement, which admittedly is a bit of a woolly concept, but in general it favours couples that look to move a long distance effortlessly on each step (sort of athletic aesthetic if you will Grin). Also, your judges are spread around the floor so the more you pass each one the more likely they are to see and mark you.

Height can be an advantage too because you're easier to see.

ALittleBitOfButter · 03/07/2017 18:18

At the moment even strident transphobe-accusers are skirting/doubting this idea. But mark my words it will catch on, in the transactivists attempts to make womanhood all about simpering femininity.

PolkadotsAndMoonbeams · 03/07/2017 18:23

Sorry, I realise I'm derailing a bit - it's just it was used as an example early on and it is actually a place where transgender people could make quite an impact (like any sport really). Two MtF people in a f/f category's would actually have an advantage.

HappyFlappy · 04/07/2017 08:13

And how does a baby choose it's sex? Some sort of test once its old enough to grab perhaps? Maybe see which toy it randomly selects: pink doll = girl, blue football = boy, toy mouse = cat.

CAT is a SEX? No-one told me!

Aeroflotgirl · 04/07/2017 09:07

It is utterly stupid, of course that child's sex is known, the parents don't want to reveal it. Yes sex is biologically determined, how you bring up your child is up to you.

bambambini · 05/07/2017 08:57

She just keeps giving. What a doofus.

Should babies be assigned a sex at birth or choose their own
Should babies be assigned a sex at birth or choose their own
OP posts:
CherriesInTheSnow · 05/07/2017 10:53

Oh. Dear. Lord.

throws self under desk and rocks back and forth

Tomorrowillbeachicken · 05/07/2017 10:54

Yikes, worlds going mad.

user1487175389 · 05/07/2017 11:00

They should be CORRECTLY IDENTIFIED as male, female or (very rarely) intersex.

Lets drop this 'assigned' rubbish, which people only use to make themselves sound 'professional' anyway.