To be infuriated by this (school related!)

[ChippaChoc]

I am just about to send an email out to my DCs class to invite them to an event (the parents) via 'classlist'. This is an event for all parents (and DCs). Classlist is the way that parents and the PTA are supposed to communicate about any events, parties, social stuff outside of the normal school day but is also used most days to remind parents about things happening In the classroom too (e.g. Forest school days, sports day) which kids need kit etc for.

There's 30 parents on the list, not one is a father / male. I can't believe that still in 2017 when most of the parents at my DCs school work, plenty of them full time, it's only Mums that are on the school comms list. It has massively annoyed me. I know it won't change anything, but it just feels we are so far away from an equal load in terms of parental responsibility I can't see it will ever change. The class list sign up went out to all parents earlier this year (there's approximately 54 emails on that list, mums and dads) and low and behold only the Mums have signed up to receive communications regarding event / parties / anything outside of the formal school comms. I wasn't involved in that sign up admin process.

Off to hassle my DH about why he isn't on it now (I thought he was!)

Haven't read through it all but as the wife of a sahd it could also be something to do with the fact that parents, schools and pre-schools compound this message by not always being welcoming to SAHD as they see this as not normal.
My OH is lovely and very friendly. He takes an interest in the activities and other kids and whilst the parents (mostly Mums) chat to him it is always me that gets the texts about the play dates and me that gets the texts about money for the class teacher etc.
We live in the north west where maybe SAHD are not as common as other areas but there needs to be a whole scale change in attitude from schools, governors and parents.

when DD was younger I taught at a school several miles away where
I couldn't answer the phone or leave. DH was much close and far more flexible. But school still sent everything to me, even though it was DH who did drop off every morning. IT can be the individual men not stepping up, but also the schools can be entrenched in their expectations. Either way, it is possible for an adult to stand back, and then make a decision not to just follow the stereotyping.

'there needs to be a whole scale change in attitude from schools, governors and parents.'

There needs to be a whole scale change in attitude from the whole of society IMO. Not just for women's sake. Men miss out too because they are so uninvolved in their children's lives. Parenting isn't just about love, it's about being the person who knows what sandwich you like and which day is PE day. It's the details and so many fathers miss out on that.

Our school only allowed one.
I do most of the school runs, and dh sometimes travels for work, so it had to be me.

We complained and complained, as it also meant divorced parents only had one, and text alerts could only come to one phone, so grandparents picking up after school were not allowed to receive.

They finally changed it.

Having said that, the emails come to a joint email account

To be fair, at our school there are quite a few SAHD, or at least Dads who are joint parenting. do pick up etc.
It has always been pretty equal about who comes in to school on special days, etc.

School was happy for each family to nominate who they liked for text system, just at the time you could only nominate one.

TheSparrowhawk

I know you didn't exactly put it like this but I don't think that it's children who necessarily suffer from one of their parents not knowing what day PE is (as long as someone knows), but the other parent definitely can suffer from being the only one who bears responsibility for this stuff

While women are the ones that give birth, I think it's unlikely we will find a 50/50 split on the school contact lists.

There is a clear view on MN that the mother has the major role at the time of the birth and rightly so. Women give birth and often breastfeed so they often naturally take the role of primary carer. Most fathers take the lead from the mother. I did settling and feeding 24/7, DH took on nappies and bath times because he wasn't able to do the bits I did. I would have hated handing over the major caring role to my DH and he wouldn't have wanted to take it on. If one or both of us had felt differently, I imagine we would have taken slightly different roles.

Yes, some fathers are primary carers from birth but not many. For them to step in at any time after birth and take on that primary caring role, they usually have to learn a new set of skills all at once that the mother has picked up gradually.

My DH wouldn't be comfortable taking on the role of primary school contact because he doesn't have all the other knowledge he would need to do it straight off and I wouldn't be comfortable suddenly being responsible for maintaining and insuring our cars. That isn't because I couldn't do it but because I haven't done it for years and would have to learn it all at once.

The fact that I'm the primary contract for school doesn't mean that DH doesn't pull his weight. We just do different bits.

I can turn my hand to a bit of DIY when I need to and DH has always been perfectly capable of doing any part of child-rearing required of him bar BFing.

It's fine to suggest that fathers should take just as much responsibility for their children as mothers and can be primary carers or share the mental load 50/50 but it's also fine for the majority of them to fulfil their responsibilities in different ways, including those that fit with age-old gender stereotypes.

I don't think any of those parents are 'wrong' and they probably las have their reasons.

But I agree with you that's it a rather sad reflection on society.

Isn't it funny how women tend to be 'good' at jobs that are unpaid, while men hate them? I wonder why that is?

But I would hate to do my DH's job, and that is paid. It is just something that I have no ability in or interest in gaining that ability. Because it does not suit my personality or the things I am good at, not because I am a woman. Likewise my DH is a terrible introvert and so hates school stuff as he finds socialising difficult. Not because he is a man but because of his personality. So we both play to our strengths.

Yes and no Yoda. My mother worked full time and my father was ostensibly a SAHD. But he was shit with details - he never knew when anything was happening or where anything was. I didn't feel safe with him and I always wanted my mother when it came down to it. She wasn't there full time but she parented me - she took care of the details of my life.

But yes, one parent taking care of everything is a terrible arrangement all round. It puts a burden on one parent to know and organise everything, it means that the other parent is disengaged and it means that the child only has that sort of day to day, detail-oriented relationship with one of their parents rather than both. Of course if the default parent dies it's a disaster.

IMO as much as possible parents should work as a team - it makes sense.

"IT can be the individual men not stepping up, but also the schools can be entrenched in their expectations. "

^^ This - ex-H is on all school info, his number first as he is much more likely to answer his phone and also more likely to be able to get to school easily. Guess who gets called first when there's a problem? (Clue: not ex-H).

Now DD is in secondary she knows to tell them specifically to call her dad if she's sick, but I still invariably get the other phonecalls.

Goldmandra

I did not breastfeed either of mine so I would not say I was the Primary Carer. With hindsight, this was one of the lovely things for us as a family (although I'd rather not have had the many months of guilt about 'failing' to bf).

Not sure why having emails sent to one person would mean that parents can't work as a team.

'But I would hate to do my DH's job, and that is paid. It is just something that I have no ability in or interest in gaining that ability. Because it does not suit my personality or the things I am good at, not because I am a woman. Likewise my DH is a terrible introvert and so hates school stuff as he finds socialising difficult. Not because he is a man but because of his personality. So we both play to our strengths.'

What if doing the school stuff also wasn't your strength? Who would do it then? My point was that in general it tends to be women who end up doing the repetitive, unpaid, boring life admin jobs rather than the many thousands of paid jobs that they could do. You wouldn't have to do your husband's job, you could do something you liked, just like your DH does. But he does something he likes and is good at while you do the unpaid work that he doesn't want to do.

TheSparrowhawk

We can only really speak from our own experience, and your was of a scatty dad, but I don't think there is necessarily anything inherent in men that they don't or can't be organise
I am interested in all this stuff because I have two, very different sons,

'Not sure why having emails sent to one person would mean that parents can't work as a team'

Of course. Except in this class the member of the 'team' getting sent the emails is always the woman. So she either deals with it or passes it on to her partner. But either way she's always the point of contact. Where are all the men taking on that role?

My DD1s class had a few very involved Dads, but when it came to a class night out one of the Mum's had a massive strop and said she wouldn't come if there were Dads there too. Ludicrous woman!

Why are you annoyed?

Because it is perpetuating every day sexism and the view that dealing whit anything related to the children is for women, not men.

FFS it feels like we are stepping back in time for women's rights on MN

It's curious that women are always better at mundane, routine, unpaid jobs than men are!

I did not breastfeed either of mine so I would not say I was the Primary Carer.

I don't believe it's just BFing or not that leads to who is the primary carer. I just think it starts from the mother often taking the primary role from birth and, at any time after that, the father would usually need to learn a whole new set of skills to take over, especially if the responsibility hadn't been split equally before that point.

I'm glad you took the roles that were right for you. What we need to aspire to is that everyone can do exactly that.

'Not sure why having emails sent to one person would mean that parents can't work as a team.'

This ^. I realise there is a lot of projecting going on here re the perceived crapness of men's parenting ability, however regarding the actual op I do not think having the mother, who may well be part time or a sahp, as primary contact is anything to get annoyed about.

Men not doing, for example, night wakings or 6am starts with a toddler yes, that would rile me but school contact arrangements? no.

I agree, but there was literally nothing, after the pregnancy and birth that I did that he could not have done. From there on in, it was just social norms that led to me staying home for several years.

So we are essentially agreeing.

It is very sad to see so many posters perpetuating the victims views and seeing sexism everywhere. I'd rather raise my girls to be proud of what they are instead of being ashamed of being women and good at something.
I am glad in real life women are in general more chilled out, and not ashamed for example of being the first point of contact with the school, when they are. Why should they be ashamed or looked down? It's ridiculous.

Coddi

We should always be proud of our individual abilities. But to assume that we possess them because of our biological sex is what many of us disagree with

ChippaChoc

This is so depressing. Why would any father feel like a 'weirdo' turning up at school sports day or a 6yr old's birthday party.

the current thread to look at is the male piano teacher, if you look back you will find male nanny threads, CMs, nursery workers and others.

the cry of "menz bad" is often heard on MN.