To not want my ds subjected to this at school

[requestingsunshine]

We don't swear at home, well I might have uttered the odd word, but generally speaking we don't swear. I am under no illusion that my children know swear words. However AIBU to expect that during a school lesson my ds (yr 6) shouldn't have to listen to the foul language coming out of a fellow pupil with the teacher doing nothing about it except telling the child 'not to swear'. Yesterday this child told the teacher and other pupils to fuck off 20 times in the space of one hour.

This is an everyday thing, but yesterday there were more fucks than usual apparently.

I don't understand why the school allow it to go on.

• I might only be a training teacher, but already I've learned two things about discipline in schools.

Number one: if your lessons are engaging enough, the vast majority of your behavior management issues will be solved before they start. In other words, look to yourself first and ask yourself whether or not your lessons are engaging your children. *

I predict you will be burnt out and leave teaching after a couple of years - 5 maximum. Absolute bollocks - engaging lessons work, of course they do, but those children who disrupt will disrupt whatever.
If you are happy to spend 3 hours designing a super lesson that is sidetracked in 5 minutes by a shitty kid then I suggest you get a life. Deal with those students - they should not disrupt the learning of others. Implement behaviour systems and remove them. If there are no behaviour systems then stand up for the 80% of students who want to learn and push it to SLT to deal with.

Sorry the bold didn't work!

if your lessons are engaging enough, the vast majority of your behavior management issues will be solved before they start

One (of several) problems with this idea is that it ignores what we know about adolescent psychology (and this also applies to a lesser degree to older primary school children). For one thing, they are wired to push against boundaries and authority (some express this more than others, obviously). For another, a lot of their behaviour is aimed at impressing their peers (showing off) or fitting in with their group norms. The power of an 'engaging' lesson can be pretty weak against the motives pushing such behaviour, and the peer culture often created by them. Unless, of course, the lesson is so 'engaging' (for this read dumbed-down) that they end up not learning much.

Of course, this will vary according to the culture of the school, and what the peer culture is like there. But it's irresponsible of lecturers to not take account of this factor when they talk about 'engaging lessons' (and the same applies to the numerous senior leadership teams who use this as an excuse to blame teachers for poor behaviour in their lessons),

This thread sadly confirms my experience with too many teachers..that they are defensive beyond all else and quite arrogant.

And shocked that they refer to kids with behavioural issues as "shitty kids they jist want rid of".

What chance do these kids have when up against that attitude from those who are meant to teach them.

finally I could equally argue that this thread shows why people don't last 5 years in the profession.
I always enjoyed the enthusiasm and the eagerness to try and make a difference.
Me too! I love it when trainees come in with new ideas. I've just learning walked the department and seen something great from one of our NQTs that I'm going to steal.

I think teaching is similar to nursing, its not the pupils, service users , patients who get you down. Its some of the negative staff members
I would agree. But I think we have to be clarify that challenging an idea and pointing out the problems that come from it isn't being negative.

Early in my career I used to believe that if I planned good enough lessons then it would sort everything out (similar to the trainee earlier). It didn't. What sorted things out what having good behaviour management and knowing when I needed the support of colleagues more experience in behaviour and SEND.

I would spend hours making mini plenary tickets because 'that shows progress' and I'd spend hours looking for a new 'hook' to engage them. And my results, though great, were no better for it. I was early in my career and totally overloaded. Experienced colleagues told me what I told the trainee earlier. They were right to do so, even if I was a bit skeptical at the time.

Now, if something takes longer to make than to use I don't do it. I'm not fussed about having 20 million bits of differentiated paper because differentiation is so much more subtle than that.

But I got here through experience and was grateful for colleagues who nurtured me through that early on in my career so I'm still in the profession when many from my training year have left.

Maisy i am saddened you werent appalled by woodhills post too.

Sorry..woodlands.

if you are happy to spend 3 hours designing a super lesson that is sidetracked in 5 minutes by a shitty kid then I suggest you get a life. Deal with those students - they should not disrupt the learning of others. Implement behaviour systems and remove them

A SHITTY kid.

Wtf

finally I wasn't replying to Woodlands. I was replying to the idea that many teachers are defensive and arrogant. I simply don't agree.

I think when the trainee earlier mentioned 'plan engaging lessons' it hit a nerve with a lot of teachers because it's a throw away comment that causes so many issues in schools. I've even seen it used to dismiss my concerns about a child who I thought would really benefit from some SEND assessment to help them gain more support.

Thr fact i didnt comment on Woodlands post doesn't mean I think they are right or its OK. It's is written in such a way that I doubt they are really a teacher. If they are then it's bloody appalling to speak about a child that way.

I imagine the sweary child is dealing with far worse life problems than your DS hearing a bit of bad language.

Wow. So that excuses it then?

At my DCs last school, one of these 'troubled' kids (no SENs or TS etc - knew their Mum) was calling a lovely lady supply teacher a paedo all day. They didn't know what it meant. They'd just learnt a new word, probably from their lovely parents, but subjected this poor lady to it all day she never came back again. Should the teacher have just let it go because the kid might be a bit troubled?

Oh and too damn right I went and had words with the school when I heard my DD repeating it at home, I swear like a navvy often and I'm far from precious, but I'll be damned if it's allowed in a classroom. It's disruptive to the other children, when the teachers having to stop 20x to tell them off, and it's disrespectful to the teachers.

It's disruptive to the other children, when the teachers having to stop 20x to tell them off

This is the real issue IMO. Ofsted suggest that about 20% of teaching time is lost to poor behaviour - something like 38 days out of the school year. And that's ignoring the extra stress it puts on teachers, who are leaving the profession at an alarming rate - between a quarter to 40% of teachers leaving say pupil behaviour is one of the things that makes them leave.

I can well believe that kesstrel. It was actually brought up in the Ofsted report at their last school, referencing how some staff didnt appear to deal with disruptive behaviour effectively.

It was only once DCs moved schools I saw the real difference, and what was lovely at the parents evening was DDs teacher telling me they've absolutely loved this year, as it's the first year in many where they've spent most of their time teaching , instead of sorting x y and z out several times a day.

away It makes a massive difference to the class and also to those students who are being disruptive.

I've had students put into my groups who've been moved for poor behaviour elsewhere and for SEMH issues because a calm environment really helps them. It also highlights to me how not all disruptive students have additional needs and excuses made.

So much better for staff and students to have a calm learning environment.

Having additional needs is not an "excuse". Its an additional need.

was DDs teacher telling me they've absolutely loved this year, as it's the first year in many where they've spent most of their time teaching , instead of sorting x y and z out several times a day

Thats their job i assume. To teaxh all kids including x y and z.

So much nicer with them removed though and easier.

Is it right for them though or the easy way out and NIMBYism.

Million dollar question right there.

Finally Maisy didn't say children with SENs have an excuse. If I've read the post properly she's just saying that not every disruptive child has a SN OR an excuse like trouble at home that justifies their behaviour.

As a parent of an 8yo with ASD I'd be first to take issue with such a statement.

Thats their job i assume. To teaxh all kids including x y and z.

So much nicer with them removed though and easier.

Is it right for them though or the easy way out and NIMBYism.

Well they never said they didn't teach them did they?

My DD was openly bullied in class with the teachers were too scared to do anything, and it was referenced in the Ofsted; but it's their job to accept abuse off children such ad being called a paedo every five minutes, or should the teacher who had their arm broken by a disruptive child carried on teaching them because it was their job too?

I suspect you're just looking for a bunfight where there isn't one to be had, thankfully I'm far too busy today to partake in it. Have a lovely day.

Well you suspect wrongly.

But enjoy your day.

Put in isolation? Badly behaved and disruptive children at my DCs school used to be removed from the classroom and placed in a separate room to work alone. This used to mostly work as these children generally act up for the attention, and they don't have an audience if put in isolation.

I suspect if you examine your thoughts you will see some NIMBYism.

My problem is that I can't get my head around people who think that schools have magic wands to wave over difficult children and make up for years of neglect ,poor parenting and the hours of negative social. experiences a child has outside school.

Exactly. Why are so many posters happy to accept that "nothing is being done" about this because OP's 11 yo says nothing is being done? No Teacher wants that kind of behavior disrupting their lessons. No SLT want to be getting complaints from parents that Little Jonny has come home and said a bad word because they heard the Naughty Child say it. Its in their interests to do what they can to sort this out, but not everything has an instant solution. There will most likely be a great deal of work going on with this child (and their parents/carers) behind the scenes that, funnily enough, OP and her son aren't privy to!

As for "removing him from the classroom" as so many posters keep suggesting, who is going to remove him? If the Teacher removes him, who will surpervise the rest of the class while they do so? If you just "send him outside" on his own as some of you have suggested, what's to stop him wandering off, potentially coming to harm? Can't have that as it's a safeguarding issue so someone has to be available to escort him. Then where do you place him? Who will supervise him while he's in there? Most schools don't have the resources to have staff waiting around in empty classrooms all day in case a child is naughty.

AwaywiththePixies27
Thank you.
That is exactly what I said and meant.

Children with additional needs often benefit from a calm environment with lots of strategies to meet their needs.

Not all children who are disruptive have SEND needs. The longer im in teaching the more i see that (and ive had at least half dozen behaviour meetings this term with students who will talk about which lessons they behave/dont behave in). Making excuses for those children doesn't help them in the long run. We have to help those children to manage their behaviour so they can learn, not say 'oh no they can't help it'.

Sweary boy sounds like my son. He is 6. At the moment the worst words he knows are fat, stupid, shut up and oh my god. When dysregulated he shouts and uses them a lot. And he is dysregulated almost all day at school. He has attachment disorder after trauma in early life and ASD and ADHD but nobody would know it (but he looks so normal!). The swearing is just a symptom. My son is getting so much therapy and we are working on the underlying causes. It's working. Other children aren't aware of it.
But I expect him to be removed from class when he kicks off.