To not want my ds subjected to this at school

[requestingsunshine]

We don't swear at home, well I might have uttered the odd word, but generally speaking we don't swear. I am under no illusion that my children know swear words. However AIBU to expect that during a school lesson my ds (yr 6) shouldn't have to listen to the foul language coming out of a fellow pupil with the teacher doing nothing about it except telling the child 'not to swear'. Yesterday this child told the teacher and other pupils to fuck off 20 times in the space of one hour.

This is an everyday thing, but yesterday there were more fucks than usual apparently.

I don't understand why the school allow it to go on.

[Lucysky2017]

If a child is disturbing other children it should not be in the class, full stop. There are rights for the other 29 chldren to get an education too and those non disruptive children deserve a peaceful classroom and ability to work in it.

[Roomba]

My 11 year old, Y6 son regularly complains to me that a disruptive child in his class just gets away with everything he does and is never punished. It really upsets my son when he gets shoved over, hit or sworn at by this child and nothing appears to happen as a result. However, I know the child's parents well and am aware that a lot is being done to try and deal with this - both by the school and at home (also various agencies involved to help). I obviously can't divulge all of that to my son, but do reassure him that it is being dealt with in an appropriate way. Still frustrates him though.

I cannot imagine any primary school is just ignoring a child swearing 20 times an hour in class. I received a phone call when my 4yo said 'fuck' in class - he heard another boy saying it, had no idea it was a swear word and repeated it. School were very quick to make it clear to me and my 4yo that this was completely unacceptable (he was so upset as he'd not realised it was rude and never said it again!). I imagine most primaries would be the same. There's clearly a lot more going on with this boy than the other 11 year olds in the class can see.

[MaisyPops]

It depends what happens when they get removed.At the end of the day, the child isn't learning when they're IN class if they are being disruptive so isolating them isn't actually hindering them any more than their in class behaviour is (and removing them from that situation means the other 31 children can learn).

I remove students from other lessons if they are stopping the class learning.
They work in my room (pr a colleagues room) supervised by a qualified and experienced teacher. They get their work done and then the class teacher can praise the work they have done and we can discuss how to make it better next time. Depending on the behaviour/situation a sanction is also issued.

I think there's a lot of people who have little experience hear 'removed from class/isolated' and decide on the worst possible idea. Do I think there's some ineffective procedures out there? Yes. But I don't think that's a reason to keep disruptive children in class hindering everyone's progress.

[vdbfamily]

It is really hard to know what the answer is in situations like this. You have to really feel for kids who have this behaviour as it is usually either to do with some condition they have or to do with a pretty rubbish home environment. However, as parents, it is also ok to want our kids to be able to learn in a safe and undisrupted environment. We had a couple of kids moved to our primary school who had been excluded from another. They had a lot of behavioural problems but the older boy seemed to settle after a few months but his younger sister was difficult all the way through school, attacking kids/teachers, throwing chairs etc. I remember parents really struggling with the safety of their child versus the need for this other child to try and stay within mainstream. I recently discovered , when my now 14 year old DD was having some counselling for something else, that she hated the last few years of primary, mainly because for a whole year, this boy punched her in the stomach. He used to hunt her down and do this daily and when she told the teacher, she was told that it was because he liked her and it was his way of getting her attention and she nneded to be kind to him. No-one told us there was a problem and I wrongly assumed her mood swings were just hormonal etc. Feel cross and sad now that she was made to feel she had to accept it and we were not told it was happening. If his sister managed a morning without hurting anyone or throwing anything, she got to spend some time in the afternoon having squash and cake with the headteacher. As adults we were continually having to explain to our confused children why she was getting so=uch preferential treatment when she had such bad behaviour. I do not envy schools/teachers trying to manage these things.

[FinallyThroughTheRoof]

Otherwise its not inclusion.

[FinallyThroughTheRoof]

Inclusion will always involve a bit of accommodation from all sides if its to work for EVERYONE.

The ideal classroom full of quiet well behaved kids can't always happen without others being failed.

[FinallyThroughTheRoof]

There comes a point when if removed too much they wont be having an education though, and are being failed.

[MaisyPops]

slkk
You sound very reasonable and like most of the parents I work with who have children with additional needs.

[slkk]

Sweary boy sounds like my son. He is 6. At the moment the worst words he knows are fat, stupid, shut up and oh my god. When dysregulated he shouts and uses them a lot. And he is dysregulated almost all day at school. He has attachment disorder after trauma in early life and ASD and ADHD but nobody would know it (but he looks so normal!). The swearing is just a symptom. My son is getting so much therapy and we are working on the underlying causes. It's working. Other children aren't aware of it.
But I expect him to be removed from class when he kicks off.

[MaisyPops]

AwaywiththePixies27
Thank you.
That is exactly what I said and meant.

Children with additional needs often benefit from a calm environment with lots of strategies to meet their needs.

Not all children who are disruptive have SEND needs. The longer im in teaching the more i see that (and ive had at least half dozen behaviour meetings this term with students who will talk about which lessons they behave/dont behave in). Making excuses for those children doesn't help them in the long run. We have to help those children to manage their behaviour so they can learn, not say 'oh no they can't help it'.

[yorkshapudding]

My problem is that I can't get my head around people who think that schools have magic wands to wave over difficult children and make up for years of neglect ,poor parenting and the hours of negative social. experiences a child has outside school.

Exactly. Why are so many posters happy to accept that "nothing is being done" about this because OP's 11 yo says nothing is being done? No Teacher wants that kind of behavior disrupting their lessons. No SLT want to be getting complaints from parents that Little Jonny has come home and said a bad word because they heard the Naughty Child say it. Its in their interests to do what they can to sort this out, but not everything has an instant solution. There will most likely be a great deal of work going on with this child (and their parents/carers) behind the scenes that, funnily enough, OP and her son aren't privy to!

As for "removing him from the classroom" as so many posters keep suggesting, who is going to remove him? If the Teacher removes him, who will surpervise the rest of the class while they do so? If you just "send him outside" on his own as some of you have suggested, what's to stop him wandering off, potentially coming to harm? Can't have that as it's a safeguarding issue so someone has to be available to escort him. Then where do you place him? Who will supervise him while he's in there? Most schools don't have the resources to have staff waiting around in empty classrooms all day in case a child is naughty.

[FinallyThroughTheRoof]

I suspect if you examine your thoughts you will see some NIMBYism.

[Livelovebehappy]

Put in isolation? Badly behaved and disruptive children at my DCs school used to be removed from the classroom and placed in a separate room to work alone. This used to mostly work as these children generally act up for the attention, and they don't have an audience if put in isolation.

[FinallyThroughTheRoof]

Well you suspect wrongly.

But enjoy your day.

[AwaywiththePixies27]

Thats their job i assume. To teaxh all kids including x y and z.

So much nicer with them removed though and easier.

Is it right for them though or the easy way out and NIMBYism.

Well they never said they didn't teach them did they?

My DD was openly bullied in class with the teachers were too scared to do anything, and it was referenced in the Ofsted; but it's their job to accept abuse off children such ad being called a paedo every five minutes, or should the teacher who had their arm broken by a disruptive child carried on teaching them because it was their job too?

I suspect you're just looking for a bunfight where there isn't one to be had, thankfully I'm far too busy today to partake in it. Have a lovely day.

[AwaywiththePixies27]

Finally Maisy didn't say children with SENs have an excuse. If I've read the post properly she's just saying that not every disruptive child has a SN OR an excuse like trouble at home that justifies their behaviour.

As a parent of an 8yo with ASD I'd be first to take issue with such a statement.

[FinallyThroughTheRoof]

was DDs teacher telling me they've absolutely loved this year, as it's the first year in many where they've spent most of their time teaching , instead of sorting x y and z out several times a day

Thats their job i assume. To teaxh all kids including x y and z.

So much nicer with them removed though and easier.

Is it right for them though or the easy way out and NIMBYism.

Million dollar question right there.

[FinallyThroughTheRoof]

Having additional needs is not an "excuse". Its an additional need.

[MaisyPops]

away It makes a massive difference to the class and also to those students who are being disruptive.

I've had students put into my groups who've been moved for poor behaviour elsewhere and for SEMH issues because a calm environment really helps them. It also highlights to me how not all disruptive students have additional needs and excuses made.

So much better for staff and students to have a calm learning environment.

[AwaywiththePixies27]

I can well believe that kesstrel. It was actually brought up in the Ofsted report at their last school, referencing how some staff didnt appear to deal with disruptive behaviour effectively.

It was only once DCs moved schools I saw the real difference, and what was lovely at the parents evening was DDs teacher telling me they've absolutely loved this year, as it's the first year in many where they've spent most of their time teaching , instead of sorting x y and z out several times a day.

[kesstrel]

It's disruptive to the other children, when the teachers having to stop 20x to tell them off

This is the real issue IMO. Ofsted suggest that about 20% of teaching time is lost to poor behaviour - something like 38 days out of the school year. And that's ignoring the extra stress it puts on teachers, who are leaving the profession at an alarming rate - between a quarter to 40% of teachers leaving say pupil behaviour is one of the things that makes them leave.

[AwaywiththePixies27]

I imagine the sweary child is dealing with far worse life problems than your DS hearing a bit of bad language.

Wow. So that excuses it then?

At my DCs last school, one of these 'troubled' kids (no SENs or TS etc - knew their Mum) was calling a lovely lady supply teacher a paedo all day. They didn't know what it meant. They'd just learnt a new word, probably from their lovely parents, but subjected this poor lady to it all day she never came back again. Should the teacher have just let it go because the kid might be a bit troubled?

Oh and too damn right I went and had words with the school when I heard my DD repeating it at home, I swear like a navvy often and I'm far from precious, but I'll be damned if it's allowed in a classroom. It's disruptive to the other children, when the teachers having to stop 20x to tell them off, and it's disrespectful to the teachers.

[MaisyPops]

finally I wasn't replying to Woodlands. I was replying to the idea that many teachers are defensive and arrogant. I simply don't agree.

I think when the trainee earlier mentioned 'plan engaging lessons' it hit a nerve with a lot of teachers because it's a throw away comment that causes so many issues in schools. I've even seen it used to dismiss my concerns about a child who I thought would really benefit from some SEND assessment to help them gain more support.

Thr fact i didnt comment on Woodlands post doesn't mean I think they are right or its OK. It's is written in such a way that I doubt they are really a teacher. If they are then it's bloody appalling to speak about a child that way.

[FinallyThroughTheRoof]

if you are happy to spend 3 hours designing a super lesson that is sidetracked in 5 minutes by a shitty kid then I suggest you get a life. Deal with those students - they should not disrupt the learning of others. Implement behaviour systems and remove them

A SHITTY kid.

Wtf

[FinallyThroughTheRoof]

Sorry..woodlands.