To not want my ds subjected to this at school

[requestingsunshine]

We don't swear at home, well I might have uttered the odd word, but generally speaking we don't swear. I am under no illusion that my children know swear words. However AIBU to expect that during a school lesson my ds (yr 6) shouldn't have to listen to the foul language coming out of a fellow pupil with the teacher doing nothing about it except telling the child 'not to swear'. Yesterday this child told the teacher and other pupils to fuck off 20 times in the space of one hour.

This is an everyday thing, but yesterday there were more fucks than usual apparently.

I don't understand why the school allow it to go on.

It's quite possible the school are desperate to get him assessed and the parents are being passive or obstructive
It's so sad when that happens.
I once taught a lovely boy who should never have been in mainstream (obviously no details on the internet) but was in mainstream because home didn't want a kid 'like that'.
We raised the possibility of getting him fully assessed and push for a place at a special school who would gladly have him and their parents got confrontational and said many things to our SENDCO including "I'm not having the spacker bus outside my house" . I will never forget having to try and hold a professional calm when she told me what theyd said. In my eyes they were failing their child massively.

dixie We have a special needs nase that work with students who have more significant needs.
So we do support, mentoring, reduced timetable with children who get overwhelmed doing some of their work in isolation as a strategy to help phase more lessons in. It's a complex network of support which I'm obviously not going into online.

Point still stands that one child cannot control the learning environment of the class.
It is wrong to expect a teacher to teach whilst everything kicks off around them. It's wrong for an entire lesson to be catered around one child.

Short of gagging this child and bundling him away into a closet somewhere, what exactly is the school supposed to do? I might only be a training teacher, but already I've learned two things about discipline in schools.

Number one: if your lessons are engaging enough, the vast majority of your behavior management issues will be solved before they start. In other words, look to yourself first and ask yourself whether or not your lessons are engaging your children.

Number two: there are always going to be children for whom the normal behavior management programs just don't work. There are kids who are self motivated. There are kids who are motivated by the promise of the proverbial carrot, and kids who are motivated by the fear of the proverbial stick.

And then there are kids for whom none of these things are true. They're the ones who are on individual behavior management plans, and often, they're the ones who have things going on behind the scenes: sub-optimal home life, SEN, childhood trauma...

The important thing for you and your son to remember is that while the swearing is continuing to happen, 1. your son knows not to do it, so he shouldn't mimic; 2. the school is very unlikely to be doing NOTHING about it, they're just not consulting with your son before imposing this child's individual consequences on him/they're not placing consequences on this child in front of your son like some sort of twisted performance art piece; and 3. whatever is going on at home for this child, and whatever plan he/she is on at school, is none of your business.

So you could talk to the school. I can tell you what would happen. You'd be told that "they can't discuss that child with you", and that "they are dealing with it". You'd go home feeling like they blew you off (they did, and rightly so) and you'd be back here complaining about that, and the teachers/staff would have a new Joke of the Week to laugh over in the staffroom, neatly provided by yourself.

Far better idea? Educate your own child. I don't mean pull him out of school. I mean be a parent, teach him that not everyone is the same, everyone has different needs, and that he knows what the rules are and it doesn't matter what anyone else is doing, he needs to make sure HE is making the right choices.

My mantra for tattlers/complainers? "You manage you, and let us manage everyone else. Thank you very much, off you go."

Number one: if your lessons are engaging enough, the vast majority of your behavior management issues will be solved before they start.
You say you're a trainee. With the best will in the world, that line is one of the reasons that there's educational disadvantage. Don't try and improve literacy and writing, engage them doing some kind out your seat activity. Spend your time cutting card sorts because that way you don't have to expect children to follow basic expectations.

By all means, plan amazing lessons. But blaming teachers for not being entertainers is shaky ground.

DixieNormas
They are not mutually exclusive. You acne work with a child to find the best environment AND refuse to allow the education of 31 other children to be routinely disrupted by the actions of 1.

Or are you suggesting I should keep a child acting aggressively in the room? Where do I focus my attention? On one child? Who is teaching the group? Who is making sure that other children with additional needs are having their needs met? Who is actually teaching the lesson in a calm environment?

Maisy while for the most part I agree with you and trust me, I've been there. The reality of our education system means that the disruptive child (no matter the root cause) is failed. They may be placated or managed within a school environment or shuttled off to another placement that doesn't quite suit but rarely do they get the education they deserve (or anywhere near that of their peers). The needs of the rest must take priority which means at every turn, the education of SEN children is seen as a luxury, something that we should all be grateful if someone even attempts to deliver.

If SEN children were properly supported, we within need to be having these discussions.

*wouldn't not within

Faith your attitude is great and refreshing.

Number one: if your lessons are engaging enough, the vast majority of your behavior management issues will be solved before they start.

I did have a parent once say at parents evening that he was surprised his daughter was less than perfect in lessons, as "she loves those Brian Cox documentaries".

I pointed out that the BBC and I had vastly different post production budgets.

Frankly, some parts of the curriculum are boring. No lesson will be interesting to all students all the time. It's not possible.

Faith- have you come across the sort of incident described by the OP, Maisie or Dixie yet?

Your bullet points are cute. And very naive and insulting to teachers who have been at the coalface for many many years.

We all thought that by channeling Robin Williams we'd have the kids leaping onto tables yelling "Captain, my Captain"

I have a fabulous relationship with my kids. I also have one lesson where the pastoral head has to stand unobtrusively outside my door (and not just mine) in case it one particular student "kicks off" and has to be removed. He's about 6 inches taller than me (and I'm 5ft 10) We have holes in our corridor walls that he's kicked in.

Maybe you could give me some bullet points on how to make my lesson more interesting so he doesn't do that? Because he's 16 now and time is running out.

As an addendum- I have two classes of that year group let's say the boy is in class A. When I had to start writing my end of year stuff last week, it really came home to me how much more I had achieved this year in Class B. And that really is down to this one boy.

Is it his fault? No.
Is it mine? Maybe, for not being able to "make my lessons more engaging"
Is it the system? What is the system supposed to do? This boy comes to me, looks down on me (literally) and says I'd better praise him at the end of year meeting because if he gets praised he's going to get a motorbike. This is the boy, who, aside from kicking holes in the walls, touches female students inappropriately and beats the boys up when they go out of school.

And I still don't agree with the OP.

The system should be set up so that enough support is provided for all children. And it isnt due to cuts.

But also..isnt it a bit naive to assume teaching will only be about teaching the easy kids. Part of the job I would imagine.

We raised the possibility of getting him fully assessed and push for a place at a special school who would gladly have him and their parents got confrontational

If I was feeling generous I would say that a parents' inarticulacy and grief about their child's future might cause them to say things that come out very badly indeed.

If I was feeling less generous I would say that a less griefstricken and more articulate parent might have told you to keep your crocodile tears, to get support in place, and to stop giving yourselves an easy life by managing their lovely but disabled child out of your nice mainstream school.

And by the way it is not your place to judge whether a child with a disability "should have been in mainstream" or not. You may honestly believe that he would do better in a special school, and so might the SENCO, but the assessments hadn't even been done at that stage. Sounds as if there had been some jumping of the gun.

Excellent post

Interesting insight on this thread into how teachers view the kids who struggle with behaviour, and their families

I'm not surprised some people are resistant to their child going to special school even when it is a school that will meet their child's needs rather than the school trying to ship them somewhere else.
There are people of this thread who appear to view special schools as a dumping ground for those they don't around their own children. He swears send him to special school etc.

I actually feel very sorry for teachers and think they get the brunt of peoples anger/frustration about their children.
In this day and age with all the cuts taking place in schools , teachers aren't supported like they should be.
And I think people on here bashing teachers are completely out of line.
Its a very difficult job and for the people going on as though teachers are carting them off to special schools as though it is wrong for a child to get an education suited best to their own special needs are just plain ridiculous.
Special schools are NOT a dumping ground , They are there for children who require more support for their needs.
EVERY child deserves an education.

Sorry Lottie but some of us are both teachers and parents and parents to children with SEND. Yes budgets are tight but often the biggest hurdle is the attitude of those in education and health. Some teachers are amazing (they really are) , some are atrocious, some fundamentally don't believe children with SEN should be in mainstream schools, some think they know what they are talking about when they really don't, some think you should be grateful for even the most basic things, some are frustrated because they know what they are doing isn't working but cannot get the help. Mix that with the attitudes of other staff, heads, SLT and LEAs and very few get an easy ride or a consistent one.

While some special schools are amazing, they are essentially a place to put all of the children who can't do mainstream. They cannot cater well enough for that entire demographic. It is too vast. So they are essentially a dumping ground so everyone can pretend those children are getting an appropriate education. That will be true for some, it won't be for many others. Particularly when your taking about children with SEMH or who aren't NT, doubly so if they don't have learning difficulties.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on that one soapbox.

That's fine Lottie we can do that but it is also my reality. DS 8 still no permanent provision.

My child attends a special school but not the one some of the staff at his mainstream tried to push him into. If I had gone with what they said instead of fighting for where he is now (which meant he stayed in mainstream longer), he would be in a much worse position now.

Yes we certainly can soapbox everyone has different views

Kleinzeit
Thank you for informing me of the facts about a sensitive situation concerning a former student when I have already said I've taken out lots of the information because, you know, this is a public forum (so not the place for identifying/confidential information)

So let me explain again (preferably without being corrected by someone who isn't involved). His needs couldn't be met and he was on occasions a danger to himself and others. I have zero problem knowing all the facts as one of many professionals involved in saying one of the parents attitude to disability and additional needs was shocking.

I found out from a colleague who was doing supply that he'd seen the student again years later and home had moved him to a special school. My colleague said that he was so much better provided for, happier and with staff and an environment that was brilliant for him.
Sometimes part of being a professional is knowing much as you like a child, you have hit the limit of what you can offer them.

Some assessments had come up, but we were having a real issue with others.
Turns out we were right. It would just have been nice to have parental support in exploring the best provision and support for their child when it first became an issue instead of years down the line when things got worse.