To think that the situation in London could end up with riots?

[Twoonatandem]

The social situation in London following this week's terrible fire is deteriorating fast. On top of the recent disastrous general election, a section of the population feel alienated. Am I being unreasonable to think we could end up with riots?

Whats the betting these dwp payments will be loans

It is about rich and poor. There are sprinklers in hotels. There are sprinklers in corporate offices. There are sprinklers in luxury apartments. There are no sprinklers in these blocks because they cost more than the borough are prepared to spend on the safety of council tenants.
As for those who have said that rioting won't achieve anything - I'm not so sure. I can well imagine that the result might be that action is quicker, more far-reaching and more public as a result.

TeaCake I bloody hope not

Poli Rioting never achieves anything positive. I am fully in support of other ways of protesting. Causing damage to property is not the answer.

Yes I think there will be. I think the public - the people from that tower need answers, all these concerns have been batted away for a very very long time.

i think councils get away with far far too much. My own council has massive issues - cries of corruption and back hand dealing etc.

I cant imagine any poster on here - facing down time after time - upset and frustrated residents from the tower block begging for fire safety measures.

How could anyone ignore these calls for help and then get shitty when the people making the calls got shitty because they were fed up and desperate and now this?

To be honest I would have liked to see all this cladding being removed today or announcements to say - " in all other council blocks this cladding will be removed" sprinklers put in - etc etc etc. NOW, TODAY.

fruitbats I'm not convinced that that's true. Someone earlier referenced Romania - that's one example. If the borough and the government continue to dismiss the protectors and to undervalue human lives then I think direct action is justified. These people have been and are being well and truly screwed - why should they just wind their necks in and take it?

Personally I am incensed. So is my (Conservative, not that it matters) MP.

deffoncforthis well it does matter because he/she may well have voted against the amendment to the Housing & Planning Bill put forward by Corbyn. My MP did - he's a landlord, makes over £10,000 a year apparently, and doesn't think he should be obliged to make the houses he owns 'fit for human habitation'. From the letters he sends out he does however like to organise trips to Westminster for his constituents. Interesting priorities there.

But they can issue a list of missing assumed dead.

everthibkyouvebeenconned They could still be compiling the list. They'll have received a lot of duplicated - and possibly contradictory - information. Sadly, most of those missing will probably be dead, but for the families even if they're told it's assumed their loved one has died, if there's no proof many will still cling to hope.

Occasionally some people caught up in disasters like this take the opportunity to disappear. Or people can be in shock and not come forward.

I do believe the various people involved are doing their best in incredibly difficult circumstances.

I wholeheartedly agree with what you are saying Poli and I do not think they should 'wind their necks in'. That is not what I'm saying. I don't blame people for being angry and I support action in the form of protest, but how can it help to smash shop windows and set light to cars in the street? That is what happens in riots.

Trust the authorities? Like bollocks you can. Exactly, will be like Hillsborough, back covering dragged out for ages.

People do not have a voice. I'm a nice polite middle class woman who has been trying to make a complaint about something and I've been treated to utter contempt and back covering. MPs get ignored. Govt departments refuse to answer things. It does not matter if you follow procedures and complain politely, if they choose to ignore difficult questions there is nothing you can do. If you get angry they hold that against you. Ombudsmen/commissioners/inquiries etc are all toothless exercises in backcovering . I know how utterly powerless and frustrated I've felt being unheard and ignored and blocked over my one thing; I cannot begin to comprehend the anger and devastation these poor, poor people must be feeling after these awful, tragic events.

People are treated far too much with contempt and they are ignored and unheard, meanwhile politicians, Chief Execs etc get rewarded and given honours.

There will be lawyers, now, advising these departments about how to make sure they are untouchable, that will be their main concern. There is never accountability.

fruitbats It's harder to ignore

I am not a politician or councillor or any person in authority. I know that I could never ignore, or will ever forget, the grief that we have witnessed in the last 3 days.

minister I feel the same and I am MC appearing too.

El

Social housing such as this has been unfit for purpose since the 70's - throughout the country and under Labour and Tory governments alike. It has not suddenly become dire due to the recent austerity measures fgs! I was a social worker under Blair's Labour government. The lifts in towers blocks were often out of service, so you couldn't even access people without walking up 20 flights of stairs. There was damp, poor heating and the blocks were unfit for purpose then - and long before that. These housing blocks were no better under Labour - and this was before the so-called immigration "crisis". It's ridiculous to blame a particular administration for the state of social housing. It's a long term problem and will require long term investment

I know ^^ and yet Labour who was in for 13 long years did fuck all as well.

It makes me a bit sick to read the posts that are salivating over this and turning it into a political thing.

What do you think are the ethnicities of the people living in the multi-million pound houses? Middle Eastern, Russian, European, you name it. Many of them are the highest tax payers in the U.K.

If you honestly think that these "global super-rich" people are some of the highest taxpayers in the UK, I've a bridge to sell you. Back in 2010, the government commissioned research into ownership of prime housing in London and discovered that huge amounts of such property was actually owned by foreign companies in other tax jurisdictions. This situation took advantage of a loophole that meant no council tax was chargeable.

Yes, significant numbers of people owning and "living" in these multi-million pound homes were not even paying a measly £3.5k a year in council tax until George Osbourne, interestingly, forced a change. And then people wonder why local councils are so cash strapped, ffs.

Again, the idea that Russian and Middle Eastern billionaires living in Kensington and Chelsea are paying anything close to a reasonable percentage of their income into British state coffers is beyond ludicrous. A significant percentage of foreign national owned homes in prime areas of London are vacant for huge amounts of the year; they have been bought as surrogate bank accounts to stash money or as boltholes in case of insurrection in their home countries. These are the proverbial "non-dom" properties, used for a week or two at most, where owners pay next to no income tax in this country and no VAT on purchased goods if they are normally resident outside of the EU.

They are, to all intents and purposes, "dead" households in terms of British tax take.

We live in K&C and I can't think if one full British family in our street. Housing is allocated to those most in need or purchased by who can afford it, regardless of your country of origin.

I cannot believe you think it is perfectly acceptable for the global super-rich to buy up huge amounts of housing resource in another country, disenfranchising the nationals of that country and creating a housing crisis in the process. These people have poured huge amounts of global capital into the British property market, causing extraordinary price rises that have filtered through the entire housing stock in the South East and beyond. Half the new build in Manchester city centre is owned by foreign investors trying to flip between off plan and sale, park cash or act as rentier capitalists on the back of British nationals and residents.

Crikey, I haven't been a leftie for a good ten years, but your post makes me want to resurrect Karl Marx.

I'm in tears now. That poor man who lost his brother. i lost a brother [flowers}

I think the government should appoint a counsellor to each family or person who had a flat in Grenfell Tower and each household given a million pounds to buy their own property . It's going to cost the government millions to address this and the five million Theresa May has just put aside sounds a paltry amount . These people need their own home now and the money to do that now.

:( derxa
"Why did you leave me" nearly broke me when I heard it

YANBU

Just a short while ago, I saw the scenes at Kensington town hall

After the initial shock and disbelief on Wednesday, there has been a rising feeling of extreme anger and frustration.

The residents in that area are demanding answers, and quite rightly so.
I do not agree that rioting or violence is the way to demonstrate this, but the feeling of helplessness and impotence is clear.

Those that lost loved ones and friends, people still missing & unaccounted for.

Also, how must the residents of nearby tower blocks be feeling?
To know that you could be living in a potential death trap, and knowing that the authorities/council did no take the steps to help prevent this tragedy.

Also, I would imagine that a lot of the residents are not likely to be in a position/situation where they can do anything to change their living arrangements/home and move out to alternative accommodation.

I can see that people are desperate to be heard by those in power- with tensions running high, it would not be a surprise is there was some kind of civil unrest.

I can understand demanding answers but this early on there will be no answers to give. It is tragic but rioting will make matters worse not better

I agree with the pp who is disgusted by the political salivating. Every body is disgusted by short cuts and lack of investment but I reckon there is a huge amount of hypocrisy going on.

Just build more houses, use brownfield sites to protect the greenbelt, is the popular cry from some quarters. Well inner city development and new houses and flats all over brownfield have brought overcrowding problems of all kinds. One is that people park illegally everywhere round where I live now, on pavements, grass verges, corners, junctions and so on "because there's nowhere else". Very narrow roads. Utterly overwhelmed by the sheer number of cars.

I have written to councillors pointing out the dangers and inconveniences for:
children crossing the road.
Wheelchair or motor scooter users
Parents with pushchairs
And - very topical this- the fire service have publicly warned us that they may very well not be able to get to a house fire due to people's parking these days.

So there was a consultation about remarking the roads to make them safer but a large majority of the feedback was violent squealing anger about the inevitable loss of parking spaces. The project was kicked into the long grass. This is a card carrying "woolly liberal" area, not a tory to be seen. But do they give a shit about wheelchairs users like my partner who can't get up the blocked dropped kerbs or past a pavement-parked twat? Do they give a shit about the fire service's warning? DO THEY FUCK. They want to be able to park their cars wherever they like for maximum convenience and fuck everyone else.

Hypocrites the lot. I bet some of them are reading or posting all incensed on this thread oblivious to their own selfishness. It will take someone dying in a house fire round here or a kid getting run over for anything to change and even then I doubt it will.

"At last - May has been to speak to the families and victims." not immediately and only after her pr team kicked her arse land only to injured vulnerable people who are in place to challenge her.

not good enough

BlindYeo :

Everyone has seen this disaster, now may be the time to come together locally about things like emergency access, leaving buggies in hall (I did this when I was unaware of the fire risk) keeping balconies clear etc.

deffoncforthiswell it does matter because he/she may well have voted against the amendment to the Housing & Planning Bill put forward by Corbyn

Are you being deliberately dishonest, or are you simply unaware that the mentioned legislation would have had no impact whatsoever on this situation and is not applicable?

I'm going to assume it's option 2 unless you tell us otherwise.

I hope so, Bees, I hope so. As you can probably guess I have been angry and worried about this sort of thing locally for some time, and as anyone with a loved one whose mobility is impaired, the thought of a house fire is very frightening let alone the fire brigade not being able to get to you. But nothing has been done due to car parking concerns being put ahead of mine! Thanks for your reply.

I can understand demanding answers but this early on there will be no answers to give. It is tragic but rioting will make matters worse not better

Trur, but they need to address people's concerns with forthright communication at every stage.

Ignore for a second the cynical left wing reptiles like Corbyn looking to use the situation to their advantage in a bid for no 10... there is a community that has just seen mass death in its midst, and what seems like criminal negligence has caused it. Heartbroken and angry. Ongoing communication is needed and I don't think even that is good enough.

sushi I agree. TM was shamed into turning up. Her excuse about security was proved to be untrue with the Queen turning up there today. I believe she should go but this thread is not the place for that discussion.

Blind I was awake by 3am on the morning of this tragedy and the news was reporting that the fire brigade couldn't get near enough to the flats due to parking and congestion on the streets. I haven't heard mention of it since.