To be very worried about this behaviour?

[poopsqueak]

I am worried about my daughters behavioural changes over the past month.

She is 5 and bright and loud to begin with. We have a very stable family life although we have seen some 'big' events over the past month (bridesmaid duty, family holiday, very ill Grandma)

Over the past month we have seen an alarming switch to 'manic and aggressive' with intrusive thoughts.

Manic meaning fidgeting constantly, running everywhere, talking nonsense, not listening or trailing off in the middle of sentences and beginning a new conversation, unable to sleep, impulsive behaviour (stealing food from others plates).

Aggressive being shouting, swearing (in the 'child' sense, think 'shut up' 'stupid. 'hate you!') being violent to myself and her father, going from 0-100 (in terms of calm to raging) and not being able to calm down once she is up a height. She has also kicked the cat in her rage. We have told her we will get rid of him if we even think she might do that again, for his safety.

Intrusive thoughts are mostly about private parts (I'll spare you the details) but essentially the growing realisation that everyone has them, and that she wants to look at everyones all the time. Or saying that she is 'thinking about private parts' all the time. Shes also making up horrible songs/rhymes in her head (and telling us, in guilt) that she can't get out. Shes asking us constantly if we are going to 'tell on her' for every little infraction and believes the police/school are going to get her if she does anything wrong.

The worst ones are the things she has come out with such as 'I want to punch someone to death with my hands' and thinking the recent fire in london was 'really funny'.... I honestly dont know what to do. i think I am going to book an appointment with the GP for a chat as its (her behaviour) has changed so much in such a short period of time.

Has anyone had any experience of this before?
What would you advise?

I agree with Got her behaviour could be attributed to various factors. It's worth keeping an open mind, OCD being one condition that can manifest in intrusive thoughts and impulsive behaviour.

Comments like this is abuse...a textbook case.. Are not really helpful, although it shouldn't be ruled out.

Somerford it could also be the kids at school who are telling on each other. My four year old and the neighbours for and five year old play out the back and the amount of times they say "Im telling on you" "no dont tell on me" is ridiculous.

I agree, you could be right. But if this little girl has developed a sudden and exaggerated concern (beyond what OP would consider normal) about getting into trouble with authority figures I think it warrants very serious consideration. Especially in light of the other behavioural changes. You're right though, jumping to conclusions and asserting them firmly probably isn't helping because we only have a handful of posts to go on. I'll leave it there.

A1Sharon, I am not diagnosing over the internet. Op has asked if anybody's experienced this before. Well yes I have, I was the 5 year old.

I went through this beginning when I was five. It was a close relative that was above suspicion. I recognize everything she's saying and doing. And it's textbook. Look it up.

Op, she is trying to tell you! She is only five. She DOESN'T KNOW HOW to tell you. She has been in this world for five little years. All she knows is that she's supposed to trust this person who is abusing her because her beloved mother trusts the person. She is TOTALLY CONFUSED. That is why she'd rather kill herself than the possibility of being rejected by her mother. Don't look at it through your eyes, look at this through her eyes and what's she's said already and get her ALONE and ask her away from anybody else in the house. Is it not worth trying? You haven't said if you asked her away from everyone else or not.

When I taught my son about safety, about how NO ONE is allowed to violate his private space or his private areas on his body, I told him that even includes me his mother, his father, and EVERYONE. And I made it clear to him that someone that we, his parents, think we trust, could be untrustworthy. I made it clear to him that it doesn't matter who it is, I would protect him and put him above any abuser no matter who it is. When it comes to child abuse, you can't exclude ANYONE from possibility.

Get her alone, Op, look her in the eye and tell her to tell you WHO. And reassure her that you will protect her even if it is somebody mommy thought she could trust, even daddy, grandpa, grandma, priest, teacher, coach, best friend. She wants to "punch somebody to death with her hands" because she has this bottled up inside her and she doesn't know, at five years old, how to tell you. She is scared to death you won't love her anymore, that you will look at her and not believe her and reject her, or that she is tainted or it's her fault or she is invisible. You have to rule out abuse before you talk about vitamins or bullying. This is not about bullying to her, it is somebody messing with her private places that everybody else seems to trust. Do NOT ask her with anybody else around. If it happens to be the abuser sitting next to her or in the same house/building, imagine what message that is sending to her.

You know, if you love your daughter above yourself, above anybody else, you will not mind me saying all this, not one bit.

I agree that intervention is needed right away.

Do you think it could be possible that she is seeing or has seen porn on the internet? I know you've asked her about seeing other people's privates or being asked to see hers and she's said no. But has that encompassed whether or not she's seen or been shown pictures or videos?

OP 'Honestly we have asked her in all sorts of ways'...

IMHO this does need to shift to you - not 'we' and asking her not in 'all sorts of ways' but directly - obviously with all the ness reassurances etc - IE if anyone has touched her private parts? Hurt her? Asked her to keep secrets? And make it clear you really do mean ANYONE^

Also, a lovely friend has crippling MH issues and is clear that now she knows what they are that she recalls signs of them/feeling them from 4/5 onwards so it's important to very fully explore all avenues (again IMHO).

How utterly awful for you, I hope you get to the bottom of it

I'm sorry you've been through that BeautyBelle that's awful.
I do think it's worth the Op seeking professional advice on how best to handle conversations so as not to scare her dd or confuse her. It would be useful to contact the NSPCC for advice.

I'm obviously not a doctor and I'm not medically qualified in any way, but as someone who grew up with OCD and was undiagnosed for 20 years, I thought it sounds like it could be she has OCD from your original post. I can honestly say though once I was properly diagnosed I was switched to sertraline, that with cbt has changed my life so much :).

I hope your GP visit goes well!

Oh OP. My heart goes out to you. My first thought was also abuse. Either experienced by her, or by her little friend and your daughter being confided in. The latter may be less likely given the intense behaviours of your daughter, but consider talking to the little girl's parents/teacher as well, especially if your daughter's friend came up with the stamping on the imaginary baby.

It must be really hard to conduct this conversation well and I wonder if the NSPCC or some other organisation could give you pointers. You also seem to have received good advice from abuse survivors on this thread :( (my heart goes out to all of you too). Being explicit that you place her above everything, that even if someone you have trusted so far would hurt her it is not her fault and you would always stand by her, even if it is family or a teacher etc would indeed seem important.

I typed a longer post but it got deleted so here's the short version. I'm not an expert but I would certainly say it sounds like possible abuse, it's not just "anyone unusual" who can ask to see "private parts" more often than not it is someone very close to the family which is why it can make it harder for a child to disclose abuse. I am concerned about her fears around telling the police . How did the gp appointment go? I would also agree with other suggestions to get advice from NSPCC. I really hope it's not abuse and wish you the best in trying to help your little girl and find out the root cause.xx

I'd be concerned by that. Hope you can get some answers from the GP

My friends DD went through something like this and had very similar behaviours and said very similar things.

Turned out she was very anxious because she was being made to feel uncomfortable about something a friend wanted her to do. Not out and out abuse but very similar to the baby game. (They were 10 at the time).

I would speak to the school and ask if they've seen any changes in her behaviour and concentration etc. Ask school if they have a councillor who could support DD.

I would do everything in my power to help her. So she should tell me.

Bear in mind an abuser will tell a child that he will kill her mother should she tell.

If my daughter was doing that I waould assume she was being sexually abused.i would be going to the doctors and asking for help

Even though your dd has only been expressing this behaviour in the past month it could be that if something has been happening to her that it started a long time ago. Perhaps look further back.

for your OP

I hope the Dr's went well? Can you ask her to draw you a picture of what's worried her? Try very open questions and constant reassurance that she really can tell you anything. I really hope you get to the bottom of this fast.

Nothing new to add. I hope your gp gets somewhere.

LittleBeautyBelle I am truly sorry you experienced this, its horrific.
But you are projecting massively. OP she is trying to tell you!
Others have come on to say that they felt like this as children and were not abused, some have said they felt like this and had OCD. It may not be abuse.
However, I appreciate that you are desperate to help this little girl, and many others are calling abuse too.
It may be abuse, it may be something else-WE DO NOT KNOW.
But we all agree that OP needs to seek help, which she has taken on board and I presume she will seek help asap.

But I also agree you need to do this alone. Maybe go for a walk when you speak to her? I wouldn't do it in the house if that's the only place she's behaving like this.

My DD had OCD intrusive thoughts , though she was older at 11.
She had seen and heard things at secondary school which she found , had to process or worried her and this is how it manifested.
It was horribly scary for all of us but especially DD. She used to sit trembling asking me if I was going to slit her throat.
She had 6 or 7 sessions of cbt with a therapist who specialised in children and it helped her regain control of her thoughts .

Is it possible she has been exposed to pornography on line by anyone?

I must say I have not read all the posts but I read about some of the behaviour and I just wondered if she has seen anything disturbing which she is trying to make sense of.

I have no wisdom but wanted to say you are a good mum for noticing and being aware of behaviour and wanting to find out answers. Good luck and I hope all will be well.

As a child with OCD I recognise a lot of the behaviour displayed here.

I suggest OP does see the GP as she is intending (presumably already been?) and go from there.

This could have a number of causes.

Great point about CBT Cocolepew, I had anxiety in my thirties and had CBT which was brilliant and cured me of it. I got a referal from GP to mental health services, this was over 20 years ago and the anxiety has never returned. I have no idea what started the anxiety.

It's too sudden to be anything unimportant.