To be very worried about this behaviour?

[poopsqueak]

I am worried about my daughters behavioural changes over the past month.

She is 5 and bright and loud to begin with. We have a very stable family life although we have seen some 'big' events over the past month (bridesmaid duty, family holiday, very ill Grandma)

Over the past month we have seen an alarming switch to 'manic and aggressive' with intrusive thoughts.

Manic meaning fidgeting constantly, running everywhere, talking nonsense, not listening or trailing off in the middle of sentences and beginning a new conversation, unable to sleep, impulsive behaviour (stealing food from others plates).

Aggressive being shouting, swearing (in the 'child' sense, think 'shut up' 'stupid. 'hate you!') being violent to myself and her father, going from 0-100 (in terms of calm to raging) and not being able to calm down once she is up a height. She has also kicked the cat in her rage. We have told her we will get rid of him if we even think she might do that again, for his safety.

Intrusive thoughts are mostly about private parts (I'll spare you the details) but essentially the growing realisation that everyone has them, and that she wants to look at everyones all the time. Or saying that she is 'thinking about private parts' all the time. Shes also making up horrible songs/rhymes in her head (and telling us, in guilt) that she can't get out. Shes asking us constantly if we are going to 'tell on her' for every little infraction and believes the police/school are going to get her if she does anything wrong.

The worst ones are the things she has come out with such as 'I want to punch someone to death with my hands' and thinking the recent fire in london was 'really funny'.... I honestly dont know what to do. i think I am going to book an appointment with the GP for a chat as its (her behaviour) has changed so much in such a short period of time.

Has anyone had any experience of this before?
What would you advise?

Please don't question her!!

Leave it to people who know how to do it without accidentally making things worse for her, tainting the information etc.

Listen and let her know you always will. Reassure her. And get help from people who know how.

That isn't a criticism of you, just an awareness of the sensitivity of safeguarding issues and also MH issues, should that be the root.

To be fair, no one has said that it's not abuse. It's important to remain open minded and explore all possible causes, be that emotional or physical.
Some medical conditions can present themselves in extreme personality changes and unusual behaviour. It would be blinkered not to give that consideration too.

I would also be worried about abuse in your situation op. It sounds almost as if something disturbing has happened and your dd is trying to protect herself by taking on the persona of a different person.
I agree with others who have cautioned against any more direct questioning. Particularly suggesting what may have happened and asking your dd who did it as suggested by a, well intentioned, pp on here.
IF your dd is abused the last thing you want is them escaping justice because they argue you have planted ideas in your dd's head. Speak to.the nspcc and children's services and get a professional to question her.

I have no experience in this sort of thing OP, but I really hope you manage to sort it out and help your little girl x

I know it's important to remain open ended, but I wonder if your daughter is in a very toxic relationship with this girl? Maybe the other girl is encouraging play that your daughter is very uncomfortable with, but goes along with at the time.

Speak to the head teacher, as they are usually the safeguarding lead. They should also be able to put you in contact with various agencies that may be able to assist you.

Oh OP, this is so worrying for you. I'm glad you're going to see the gp and get some professional advice. I really, truly hope it isn't the worst that you're imagining, and that your little girl is back to her own self soon. Whatever happens, there is support for you here if you need or want it. .

I agree with I lost. Some medical conditions present in this way, particularly neurological (asd etc).

Yes, find a child therapist or someone appropriately trained to get to the bottom of it if your child feels she can't tell you.

All of our experiences matter. I am not for confronting or putting words in her mouth, use different phrasing, what you think will work...some of you twist words here on mn and try to find anything to attack somebody with no matter what the thread is about. There are always going to be people like that.

I want your dd to be safe and happy. That you will be able to find out very soon what is troubling her so that she can be helped. I guess my advice is based on reflection of what happened to me, the recognizing of much, not all, of your dd's behavior...I didn't try to hurt animals or laugh at tragedy...but some of the other things are textbook and not just my experience but many others' experiences. I'm telling you what would have worked for me at that age to open up. I put myself in your dd's shoes, not yours, and that has rankled.

Speak to the professionals.
Do NOT follow the advice of one disturbed individual on the internet who is using emotional blackmail ('if you love your dd...') to push you into interrogating her. Asking her leading questions like 'who is touching your secret places' could be disastrous. She may not be being touched. She may be being exposed to something horrible like porn, or something the other girl is saying, and asking her who is touching her could be upsetting and confusing. Or she may be being touched. Or she may have OCD. Or it may be a combination of these things. Or something else entirely.

Seek advice from the people who know what to do, not just a random individual.

It must be so Worrying

OP, I feel so sorry for your little girl and you. At her age thoughts, comments and games concerning sex and/or death are not abnormal. I would even say mild OCD isn't abnormal.
However I feel this sudden dramatic change does indicate something is amiss. You are right to get outside help as soon as is humanly possible.
My immediate thoughts were if she may have been shown or stumbled across inappropriate material online? YouTube is full of violence, sex scenes and birth videos.
Cautionary tale: My DD is a similar age and used to love browsing 'baby alive' doll videos (ads and demos) and thus came across links to 'live baby birth' videos. I stopped her immediately of course. I was an idiot to let her go on YouTube in the first place. And had she been on headphones I wouldn't have known.
How internet savvy are the grandmothers + grandma's partner?
On an even darker note, I second previous posters concern for sexual abuse. Monsters don't get close to children, 'nice men' do. I really hope you get to the bottom of this.

Cross posts there Utteridiot.

Even though this site is anonymous, I debated whether to open up to you all and I did because of the Op's post. I kind of wish I hadn't now. It wasn't easy and I almost didn't press post message. I hope I've helped someone with my experience.

I have said earlier that anything I have asked her has been in a very vague in direct way as I am aware of leading her. I will stop and let the professionals take over.

I have asked the school for a private appointment firstly without her to talk about my concerns of this game and the relationship with this other girl. They way she talks about her, it's like she is annoyed by her as she trails along after my daughter. My daughter has referred to her as 'weird' before but I told her weird wasn't a kind word to use.

My gut is not saying abuse If it's any help but more likely that she's been under a great deal of stress recently with bridesmaid duties, holidays, a very ill great grandmother and this weird relationship with this girl.

There was an incident about 6 months ago at school where a boy pushed her up against the wall and kissed her (h was in her class) but we immediately spoke with the teacher and the teacher spoke with his parents etc and it was sorted out.

My gut is saying she is not coping with all the things life is presenting at the minute.

I haven't mentioned this before (as partially not relevant and also wanted objective advice but when I was about 8 I had intrusive thoughts and had to hold my breath and count to a number when I got to bed as I thought something might 'get me'. I have had MH issues as an adult so I am quite conscious of these things with my daughter.

Definitely get in contact with the school. It seems strange to me that she's not exhibiting this behaviour at school. Usually teachers are among the first to notice these sorts of changes. I really hope your daughter is ok

Confide in your GP as a first step, OP. You need professional help and support with this and until you get it try not to overthink.

Have only read first two pages, but sounds a lot like OCD. Mine manifested similarly at that age.

Could it be anxiety OP? When I was little my grandmother (who I saw every day) got very ill. She was in and out of hospital all the time and my parents were splitting up then also. I used to draw my family in coffins and everything I liked was associated with death and clergy! It was horrendously weird. I also had a 'thing' about the privates. Although, I've no idea why. Still to this day don't understand it.

for you . Hope you get to the bottom of it x

Hello OP
Just wanted to tell you my story. I was 6 and one Friday after school my lovely Granny and Grandad picked me up unexpectedly as my Dad had whisked my Mum off for a surprise break to Paris. All that weekend and for about a 6 week period after (that was so awful my mother and I still refer to it now as my "Worries" period) I had intrusive thoughts about people dying, weirdly one was about a machine building a man that I picked up from a cartoon, me doing things wrong and if I didn't confess then something bad would happen. I can remember crying to my confused mother as I fell so guilty that at school we'd all pretended to have "boobies". The guilt about anything and everything was awful. Retrospectively I had at this time a friend and we used to play a boss / secretary game that involved an affair and pretend kissing etc. God it sounds so odd now but she must have got it from somewhere. Anyway I can remember feeling guilty about that too.
As I have grown up I have had periods of anxiety, the worst being after my first was born and the intrusive thoughts were horrendous! CBT saved my sanity and now I understand my brain and the thoughts come but don't bother me so much.
My point being that this pain patch, intrusive thoughts, as a child came on because of the anxiety of my mother suddenly going away and because of how my brain deals with anxiety. I was never abused thank god and maybe your daughter is just having anxiety about everything that has gone on and it is manifesting in these thoughts and confessional behaviour. The GP will hopefully help but I wish id had a bit of CBT when I was a child. Good luck. You sound like a great mum.

First thing i thought is that maybe obsessive compulsive thoughts , the needing to telling the truth constantly.
If not i wonder about her friend?
Hope you get to the bottom op.

Hi OP, I just wanted to say that as a child I suffered some "low level" abuse from a little girl who in turn was suffering some quite serious abuse. She also showed me some material that was pretty disturbing but I was visiting her at her home. I hope you get to the bottom of it, whatever it may be.

LittleBeautyBelle
It is understandable why this means so much to you.
Sorry if I came across harshly.

It's OCD

OCD OCD OCD

(Stop with all the abuse scenarios people)
Go to the GP,
Get her checked physically to out rule ongoing infection Eg staph or strep throat, or toxoplasmosis as someone above said.
Have her referred to psychology or to CAMHs.
Don't forget a throat swab.
Google sudden onset OCD
Or pandas.

Lostbeyondwords I am so sorry.

I work with vulnerable families, and apart from that, also know people that have gone through various scenarios.

As pp have said, contact professionals ASAP, don't ask intrusive questions. Could be any number of things, but any child safeguarding training will tell you that her behaviour could be a flag for abuse.

Other explanations could be OCD. I know adults with it, and that anxiety and erratic behaviour, along with intrusive thoughts, can come with it.

A friend of mine's daughter was really very difficult, she had her eyes tested at about 5 and it turned out she could barely see, even though aside from the bad behaviour there was no indication her vision was the problem. Now she has her specs, her behaviour has dramatically improved.

Encephalitis or some other brain condition could also play a part in bizarre behaviour.

Another potential thing I can think of, is that a friend or other child is being abused, and is talking to her about sex/genitals/inappropriate behaviours etc

Call the nspcc and make an appointment to see your GP and ask for an urgent referral to CAMHS. Don't let the doctor fob you off. If the waiting list is really long, it may be worth it, if you have the money, finding a private child psychologist that also works within the NHS, who could be paid to see her at first but can then keep you within the NHS system for further help and continuity.