To be very worried about this behaviour?

[poopsqueak]

I am worried about my daughters behavioural changes over the past month.

She is 5 and bright and loud to begin with. We have a very stable family life although we have seen some 'big' events over the past month (bridesmaid duty, family holiday, very ill Grandma)

Over the past month we have seen an alarming switch to 'manic and aggressive' with intrusive thoughts.

Manic meaning fidgeting constantly, running everywhere, talking nonsense, not listening or trailing off in the middle of sentences and beginning a new conversation, unable to sleep, impulsive behaviour (stealing food from others plates).

Aggressive being shouting, swearing (in the 'child' sense, think 'shut up' 'stupid. 'hate you!') being violent to myself and her father, going from 0-100 (in terms of calm to raging) and not being able to calm down once she is up a height. She has also kicked the cat in her rage. We have told her we will get rid of him if we even think she might do that again, for his safety.

Intrusive thoughts are mostly about private parts (I'll spare you the details) but essentially the growing realisation that everyone has them, and that she wants to look at everyones all the time. Or saying that she is 'thinking about private parts' all the time. Shes also making up horrible songs/rhymes in her head (and telling us, in guilt) that she can't get out. Shes asking us constantly if we are going to 'tell on her' for every little infraction and believes the police/school are going to get her if she does anything wrong.

The worst ones are the things she has come out with such as 'I want to punch someone to death with my hands' and thinking the recent fire in london was 'really funny'.... I honestly dont know what to do. i think I am going to book an appointment with the GP for a chat as its (her behaviour) has changed so much in such a short period of time.

Has anyone had any experience of this before?
What would you advise?

Vitamin deficiency? I am going to shops tonight and will get some children's vitamins. That's a good call I suppose.

Can you get hold of some kids books which talk about illness and death. Might help her process. Look on amazon

Don't assume only men abuse. Statistically more likely, but it only takes one.

The game they played is very disturbed. She and the other child need to be encouraged to disclose where that came from. One or other of them has been exposed to something they should not have.

I'd contact NSPCC for advice, as that investigating should be done by a trained professional, I reckon.

No you probably need proper GP blood tests for vitamin deficiency. Multi bit won't cut the mustard if she's deficient.

I too would be extremely worried about this behaviour. Your little girl has been/is being traumatised by something/someone.
GP and school is your next step. If I would you i would take her away for a few days 1-2-1 and see if you can calm her/bond and regain her trust (in case she feels like it's been questioned that is).
Does she ever seem reluctant to go to school or after school club?
I would stop her attending the club immediately if possible to eliminate the possibility that someone there is involved.
It may be that the other little girl has confided in your daughter and she can't process the information obvs because she's so young. i'd find out for sure if they still play together at all. Even if they don't play 'that game' just being around the other girl won't let the distress dwindle. Good luck OP. Such a worrying time for you I can only imagine. You'll get to the bottom of it i'm sure xx

Haven't read the full thread but OCD is a lot about intrusive thoughts and obsessive behaviours which can make you angry or upset if you can't follow it... maybe look it up and see if that fits? Hope you figure it out whatever it is anyway a GP visit wouldn't be uncalled for.

Have your GP give her a blood test for toxoplasmosis. It can cause changes in behaviour, including an increase in impulsiveness. There is a link to schizophrenia type behaviours.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/beware-of-the-cat-britains-hidden-toxoplasma-problem-8102860.html

A colleague I know who works with children who have been abused has said to me that she would never leave her DD alone with ANY male at all, including close relatives. It upset me truth be told as my Dh's dad is a wonderful and lovely gentleman who I 100% trust completely - but I guess she has seen a lot of that type of man who have abused children/their own relatives. I hope you get answers.

Sorry, hadn't seen update.

OK, this is total speculation, but I am guessing here that the other little girl has instigated a game, and it is scary and a bit to close to reality. It has in it some unknown things eg mention of sex, and some quite odd things, eg stamping on the baby - which do raise eyebrows. I wonder if your dd is freaked out by this and doesn't know how to express that?

Giving birth games are surprisingly common and not in themselves a cause for concern (my mum was an infant teacher and she once had 2 little girls re-enact a complete home birth scene in the home corner. The little girl concerned had just had a baby brother born at home. It was her way of processing all that she had seen. the other kids didn't blink an eye!)
But the whole scenario could be that she (your dd's friend) has seen stuff that isn't age appropriate.
Having happily passed it all on to your dd, maybe your dd is struggling to process it more.

Innocent or not, I would begin with teacher, ask for private meeting, no dd. Explain all your concerns as you have in OP, stress the change in her behaviour, and say theonly thing which has changed appears to be this odd game with the other girl. If the other girl's mum is worried too, I suspect there is something there connected to this game.

The intrusive thoughts do suggest OCD to me - and since she's so young, she won't understand that these thoughts coming into her head aren't the same as wanting to do the things.

Love and hugs have been aplenty the past week and one on one attention has been in abundance especially with a week away with us.

The game is incredibly disturbed I know and perhaps I have overestimated he ability in asking her to stop the game herself. I have now booked an apt with the school to chat.

I am booking the GP st 4pm. Myself and her dad are very worried. I asked her the other day (which was probably the wrong thing) 'where has my lovely Xxxx gone? And she replied 'I've killed her'

Gah! missed the next updte about great grandma!

Death becoming reality is very distressing for children. It is less about the person dying and more about the realisation that Grandma and Mummy and Daddy coudl die too.

It could all be down to this alone.
Very hard to say, but definitely get some help.
I would still talk to school as above, but also get advice for your self from Winston's Wish or NSPCC about bereavement

Agree that it is likely that the other little girl has been abused or exposed to something, and has scared your dd by telling her.

How long has "grumpy" been on the scene?

I am so sorry to say this, and I mean it gently, but can you really be 100% sure your mum's husband is trustworthy?

Also, in your first post you mention that she's seen both her grandmas naked and that you're quite "comfortable" with nakedness as a family. Can you expand on that a bit?

She could even be coping her friends behaviour and actions. Her friend seems quite disturbed.

Mum has been married to him since before she was born.

I mean like comfortable with nakedness as in walking to and from shower, having conversations while someone is showering/getting changed.

But we've stopped that since this has happened.

Stopped it because she was mentioning it too much and was obviously becoming aware of private parts.

TBH, like another poster said, I'm sure a lot of girls will play games where they pretend to have babies or pretend to be pregnant and give birth (specially if they have a little brother or sister) and that wasn't the part that concerned me, but the fascination with death and killing and laughing at the people that died in the London tower block. That's not normal behaviour. I really reiterate and urge you to see a GP AND a child counseller.

Abuse, Op. Textbook behavior. Do something NOW. Look at everyone around her with an eagle eye.

Do not rule out anyone. Let me say that again. Do not rule out anyone. Your daughter's well being and her life is at stake. You've got to get to the bottom of this and be smart about it. I would even place (hidden) recording devices in rooms of your house while you're not home. I would scrutinize every single instance of who she is around from the time this behavior started to now. She is being told (threatened) in various hideous manipulative ways to keep the abuse secret so she is giving you clues every way a little child is able.

Op, look close to home first, it sounds to me I'm sorry to say that it could even be the male adult in your house, from her behavior, outlandish because she feels like she can't tell you exactly who it is, that points to a very close relative or very close authority figure. She's conflicted, she's supposed to trust whoever this is because she sees that you trust them, that's why she's not telling you;

Then look at extended family, male and female, then neighbors, then close friends, then school and church authorities, after school activities, friends, friends' parents and any older kids male or female or adults that are around all of these people. Be thorough and don't let anyone out of possibility. Don't let this continue on, for her sake.

She said "I've killed her" of herself ?? Oh, Op, my heart is breaking for her. Someone very close to her is abusing her and she is blaming herself as the abuser intends. It is somebody you trust or else she would have said. She doesn't understand why you trust someone who is abusing her. Think of it in her terms. In private, while you and her are completely alone, with no one else in the house, tell her to tell you, and tell her no matter WHO it is, you will protect her and it will be ok. Send whoever is in the house to a long errand and do it now. Op, this is very serious. I am speaking as someone who knows something about the subject.

Oh how horrible for all of you. It does sound like textbook behaviour from abuse, either herself or her friend that is in turn "passing" the effects of her abuse on to your dd.

I wonder if someone has been telling her that she is doing something wrong, and that if anyone finds out, the police/school are going to get her? :(

I think it sounds like abuse.

And I think usually the most obvious answer (the unrelated male) is the correct one. Sorry, I'll get flamed for that, but I'm not really arsed.

Obviously I don't know for sure, but I think you may need to be a little more discerning about who you trust implicitly. Sadly loads of kids are abused. I'd be willing to bet in most cases the culprits are people who the parents trusted implicitly.