AIBU - Understanding Islam

[peggypatch99]

Hello All, first post (lurker of years and years).

I watched the concert last night, very emotional and tears shed, but afterwards I have felt myself become so angry, and I am not sure at what exactly, the world? Terrorists? The Government?

So I wanted to educate myself better and understand more about Islam in the west, how we are perceived and what life is like for Muslim's - I see posts on facebook and sometimes I agree but without knowing the ins and outs, which led me to trying to understand the muslim way of life and separate muslims from Islamic radicals - some people seem to put these in the same category despite the fact the IRA did not represent the Irish Catholic community as a whole.

However I looked at a Muslim forum, and to be honest I was shocked and upset at how we in Britain are perceived.

The forum (I appreciate not all Muslims will think in this manner) seeks to demonstrate how as women we must be completely submissive, if we are not men are allowed to strike us. There are conversations about how we are unclean unless we have undergone FGM, how in Britain we need to be taught that there is only one god, how homosexuality is wrong and people should be punished.

I wondered if perhaps Muslim ladies would share their thoughts on the forum, as this is giving me a distressing understanding of the religion, when I thought that Islam was a peaceful religion - but striking wives, withholding sex - or punishing and sleeping with other women, seems to be encouraged.

(This is advise given to a husband)
Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.

I am probably coming across as not very educated on the matter, and that is true, but would be interested in what Mumsnet think of this forum and whether forums like this are perhaps clouding our judgement of the religion as a whole.

I am Christian and can't say I visit Christian forums as there are always those who take scripture and amend the meaning for their own aim.

Here is the forum:
www.ummah.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?158-Marriage

Thank you, please note I am not a troll, I am someone wanting to learn better and understand. I think part of the problem is that without being educated properly it leads to incorrect thoughts and feelings which are very raw post attacks.

There are a lot of liberal reform movements in the the Muslim world.

I am a muslim and a criminal barrister. I wear navy suits and no hijab. I dress modestly, whatever that means. I don't drink and never have , I pray and eat halal food. I have friends from all backgrounds. I have been in my profession for over 20. years and regularly prosecute sexual offences. I pray regularly. Remember muslims don't have a structure like a Pope or Archbishop. No Islamic website has any justification to preach intolerance or lack of compassion. Many muslims do need to integrate more, this much I believe!

user1496662851 It seems like every time I'm on mumsnet I'm having to explain the same surahs to the same patronising, arrogant people who are never going to actually listen to me or anyone else that challenges their uneducated opinions. You believe what you want, I don't care anymore, I'm not interested. I'm interested in constructive debate and conversation, not people like you.

Apologies I had hoped this thread could be about learning more, without arguing. I have enjoyed the debating and learning but please think about other peoples views. I don't want anyone bashed for their beliefs - that was the opposite of my intention!.

I think it's very interesting to hear both sides without any criticism of someone's opposing views.

StatelesPrincess
You don't need to explain anything to me. I was raised Muslim. I was interested to see how you choose to contradict the Koran when the language is unambiguous and clearly stated. Apologies if you didn't feel it was a constructive debate, but I equally find it frustrating when other Muslims do not acknowledge what the Koran so clearly says.

Here it is again, clearly stating that husbands can strike their wives: corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=4&verse=34

Please tell me what is ambiguous about this surah?

PeggyPatch99 - unfortunately there are many disagreements within Islam. So much so, that some groups support UKIP policies:
www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/15242465.Oxford_Muslim_group_supports_UKIP_proposal_to_ban_the_burka/

But anyone who says that Islam is compatible with feminism doesn't properly understand either feminism or Islam.

user1496662851

Sorry, but you have seemed to missed my point that Islamic countries, no matter what they may claim, are monopolising the true teachings of Islam. Just look at Saudi Arabia, all of the Princes gamble, drink alcohol, have sex outside of marriage and so many other vices that are categorically forbidden in Islam. So it's highly dubious to me that they represent Islam. I've mentioned it before, but Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself said that after his demise Islam would be portrayed in the most misguided light. Why? Because some people pick and choose the teachings.

As a devout muslim who learns about her faith day in day out, please do not compare your experience of living under self-proclaimed Islamic countries to years of learning about a faith.

Yes, a woman inherits half of what her male counterpart does. But she also inherits rights from her husband whereas a husband has none over his wife. So in essence, she has rights to two inheritance whereas the male counterpart has to one. A man in a traditional islamic set up is financially responsible for any person under his care including wife and children. So a) he has more 'need' for money and b) when he inherits money, he inevitably will share it out in one form or another in his household. On the other hand, a wife's money is her money. She is under no obligation to spend it.

So yes, if you are obtuse and look at things alone, without trying to understand the reasoning, it looks all doom and gloom. But that's because people are looking for it. As a Muslim wife, daughter, sister and mother I am equal to my husband, father, brother and son. Regardless of what backwards countries say. It's not Islamic. Full stop.

user1496662851 I've answered this question before, I think I was actually asked about it last night on another thread. Although you wouldn't have seen that perhaps, as this is your first time posting I don't know why you feel the need to question me on this surah, and why it is in fact a mistranslation/interpretation, especially after I've already told you that I'm not interested in engaging with you- a quick google will tell you.

SprinklesandIceCream
Thanks for your explanation, but it's still not equal. A wife, if there are children, can only inherit 1/8 of the husband's property, the thinking being that the eldest son will look after his mother.

If you are truly equal to your husband, father, brother and son, please clarify what, according to Sharia, your testimony is worth? Is your word worth the same as theirs for all matters under Sharia?

@user1496662851

The inheritance law is actually better for women. Let me give you an example. I work, I earn 50K a year. I don't pay a penny towards mortgage, household expenses, children's expenses nor childcare. My husband pays all and pays for my personal expenses too (clothes, make up etc.). By the time me and my husband inherit, I will have savings of over a million, whereas he will have probably nothing. He will inherit from his parents double the amount of what I will from mine, but I will have a huge amount of savings by then, and he will have to spend that inheritance money on us, whereas I can keep mine as my savings! So it is actually men who are disadvantage.

StatelessPrincess
You keep saying it is a mistranslation, but I've given you a link to seven official translations, all of which are quite clear:
corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=4&verse=34

And no one has answered the question about the weight of a woman's testimony. Here is the relevant surah, which says that in contractual disputes the testimony of two women is needed, so that one can remind the other if she's mistaken:
corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=2&verse=282

You have the right to keep telling yourself that Islam is all about equality, but I've experienced enough to know otherwise.

The inheritance law made sense at a time when it was not common for women to work outside of the home and traditionally men had to provide a house, a dowry in order to get married and would be the sole earner. I doubt any Muslim working woman keeps all her wages as savings just for her, sorry but this is not realistic unless she is wealthy and money is not an issue. I am a Muslim, I work just like my husband, we are partners and any savings we make is for both of us. I dont expect him to look after me. My mum has also worked all her life, my brother to inherit more than me would just be unfair and not reflective of our current times and situation. Laws need updating to reflect changing times or they become irrelevant.

Islamic extremists are committing their crimes precisely because they are Muslim, not in spite of the fact. I'm afraid it's simply not true to say (as many Muslims have, after recent events) that anyone who murders innocent people in the name of Islam is NOT a Muslim. I appreciate the sentiment, but it's simply not true

I'm not sure I agree. They would have found criminality in some shape or form. They're murderers. Pretending it has something to do with Islam is an insult to the religion, an insult to the victims and gives the perpetrators an excuse. They're murdering arseholes. That is all.

user1496662851 The information regarding this common mistranslation/interpretation is freely available on the internet, I have already told you this, you could look but you don't actually want to. Please stop directing posts at me, I've told you twice now that I don't want to engage with you, as usual an interesting and constructive thread is going the same way over the exact same topics. Muslims on mumsnet and often in real life get a really hard time from people like you, I've become so sick of defending and explaining my religion to idiots that I'm not doing it anymore, and I'm sure I'm not the only one, which is probably why nobody is answering your question.

Hi, really hope this doesn't offend anybody as I would like to know this but don't want to ask anybody in real life but is the covering of hair and/or body with a hijab, niqab or burqa is it to protect a woman's modesty against other men who may be attracted to them? Because what if the woman was in the prescence of a gay woman, would she still cover her hair because of a potential attraction issue or is it just gender? And also, is this just in person I.e. If a man saw a photograph of a woman's hair would this be ok or not?

Even if we got rid of all religion and the entire world became atheist, hate-fuelled bigots would still be protesting against women's rights or GLBT rights or whatever exploiting science (eugenics, genetic purity) or sociology/politics (communism) to support their stance.

I wholeheartedly could not disagree more with this. I was actually going to make a thread on it. If there was no religion (as in never any religion rather than it fading out) we would be so far ahead, scientifically, by now and so advanced. What is the biggest argument against those things you listed? "Not in Gods name", or similar. We wouldn't be a utopia but I think we'd be a much happier bunch.

Just to say I am really enjoying the posts whereby we are discussing issues and Muslim women are helping to educate me and hopefully others on their religion so we can understand more.

As a person without any friends who follow Islam I am finding it is opening my eyes, and I think as we unify it is important to understand better our own communities.

I really appreciate everyone's comments, I certainly have a much broader understanding than I did when I posted my post this morning and I thank you very much.

MissionItsPossible There are many, many different reasons why Muslim women cover, for me it's more about expressing my faith and identity as a muslim and doesn't have a lot to do with men although there is an element of that. I wouldn't be happy if a man saw a picture of my hair. As for a gay woman seeing me uncovered I would be ok with that. There is no clear cut answer in Islam (I think) but we only have to cover in front of men we could potentially marry and as gay marriage is not recognised in (mainstream) Islam I think it's ok. The exception would be if you knew for a fact that the woman was attracted to you, in that case it would be appropriate to cover.

I.e. If a man saw a photograph of a woman's hair would this be ok or not

Years ago a woman I worked with had a makeover/photo shoot and brought us the photos in to see. A few of them were without her headscarf and she was really careful with them to ensure none of the men on the team saw them. I've always thought this would apply to all Muslim women who wear a hijab etc?

People like me? What? Am I the wrong kind of Muslim?

I've provided links to approved Islamic translations of the Koran based on my upbringing in and knowledge of Islam.

Seven official translations in case there is any ambiguity. Here they are again:
corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=4&verse=34

And here is the respected Sahih International at Quran.com:
quran.com/4

People can make up their own minds about what the texts clearly state. It does not make someone an idiot if they're asking you how you can claim Islam does not condone beating women when the approved translation of the Koran makes it clear that it does. That meaning is generally accepted across the Islamic world.

People aren't stupid, they can see what's written in black and white and performing semantic gymnastics to try to reinterpret the meaning is disingenuous. Let's be honest about the text and say that it applied to a completely different time, that it is wrong...

But as you and I both know, to even suggest that is a serious transgression, so the semantic gymnastics will continue, which gives extremists the space to operate because no one can directly confront and disavow the surahs that give them a shred of legitimacy.

I don't mean to add to your woes. You are no more responsible for an entire religion than I am, but when our religious book states that husbands can beat their wives and sanctions violence, perhaps it is right that we should have to defend it, and maybe even question it.

StatelessPrincess Thanks for the reply and the information [thumbsup]

[thumb]

How do you do a thumbs up emoticon ??

Covering hair is regarded as part of modesty. There is no mention of covering hair or face in the Quran, but there is a verse that women should cover their bosoms. I wear the hijab but over the years come to believe that it is not a requirement in Islam. Clothes do not protect women though and I am uncomfortable that so much emphasis is put on women's bodies by male preachers and that onus is put on women to dress and behave in a certain way for their own "protection" but little emphasis on men's behaviour. I think attraction is natural, there is no requirement to cover hair in front of other women who may be gay or not. Islam is not monolithic, I am sure you will find an interpretation of the religion that find it sinful for a man to see a photograph of a woman's hair and other interpretation which deem it to be normal. The reality is most Muslim men and women watch films, socialise with the opposite sex, have access to social media, etc.

Purpleviolet- it's interesting to read the Muslim men are encouraged to lower their gaze when dealing with women. I work in a school where are high percentage of children are Muslim. Many times I've dealt with fathers and they've refused to maintain eye contact. I've always felt quite irritated by it and felt that I didn't warrant eye contact with them because I'm merely a woman. It never occurred to me that it could be a sign of respect so to speak.

Haven't rtft as I'm finding all of these goad posts quite hard work atm, and sorry if this is a x post but just to say...

Muslims do not need to explain or excuse themselves or their faith in light of recent events.

I am finding this gentle prodding -goading- on lots of threads recently pretty disgusting, really.

I stand in solidarity with the Muslim community here on MN and in the wider community too.

These are terrorist attacks. TERRORIST attacks. Don't get confused.