AIBU - Understanding Islam

[peggypatch99]

Hello All, first post (lurker of years and years).

I watched the concert last night, very emotional and tears shed, but afterwards I have felt myself become so angry, and I am not sure at what exactly, the world? Terrorists? The Government?

So I wanted to educate myself better and understand more about Islam in the west, how we are perceived and what life is like for Muslim's - I see posts on facebook and sometimes I agree but without knowing the ins and outs, which led me to trying to understand the muslim way of life and separate muslims from Islamic radicals - some people seem to put these in the same category despite the fact the IRA did not represent the Irish Catholic community as a whole.

However I looked at a Muslim forum, and to be honest I was shocked and upset at how we in Britain are perceived.

The forum (I appreciate not all Muslims will think in this manner) seeks to demonstrate how as women we must be completely submissive, if we are not men are allowed to strike us. There are conversations about how we are unclean unless we have undergone FGM, how in Britain we need to be taught that there is only one god, how homosexuality is wrong and people should be punished.

I wondered if perhaps Muslim ladies would share their thoughts on the forum, as this is giving me a distressing understanding of the religion, when I thought that Islam was a peaceful religion - but striking wives, withholding sex - or punishing and sleeping with other women, seems to be encouraged.

(This is advise given to a husband)
Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.

I am probably coming across as not very educated on the matter, and that is true, but would be interested in what Mumsnet think of this forum and whether forums like this are perhaps clouding our judgement of the religion as a whole.

I am Christian and can't say I visit Christian forums as there are always those who take scripture and amend the meaning for their own aim.

Here is the forum:
www.ummah.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?158-Marriage

Thank you, please note I am not a troll, I am someone wanting to learn better and understand. I think part of the problem is that without being educated properly it leads to incorrect thoughts and feelings which are very raw post attacks.

I've found this thread interesting reading, my favourite line has to be "I'd be willing to bet the Quran doesn't say anything about women driving cars" courtesy of HerOtherHalf
I think you also sum it up perfectly with "My common sense tells me that a few murderous nutjobs, many of whom probably have serious mental health issues, do not represent the wider muslim community"
Yes, my thoughts exactly.

Thanks for the link Stateless.

"What we need is to be able to understand the real truth - but will we ever when all religions can be construed in differing ways?"

For the most part Peggy, its irrelevant. If someone wishes to walk around with a sandwich board stating we're all damned for failing to follow to path of righteousness, then so be it. All religions have them. You should meet my mother.

What separates ISIS, the war on terror and Islam, is the terrorists themselves having support of 'radical' (traditional?) strands of Islam, and also the huge numbers that then do support them. If this were a small bunch of nutters, living in a Yurt on Salisbury Plain, spouting hell and damnation, they would be dismissed with the ridicule/contempt they deserve. Unfortunately it isnt.

True Caroline.....

Her other half I think is the truth -

"My common sense tells me that a few murderous nutjobs, many of whom probably have serious mental health issues, do not represent the wider muslim community"

Stateless, Im still thinking about your 'integrate/assimilate' point from the other thread. Still thinking........

Glad your doing great, and thank you, and others, for engaging. Itd be utterly pointless, a bunch of jam making white middle class PTA members spouting their opinions on the worlds ailments. (I know my place We need open debate and discussion, and youve really helped understanding. (Though Im not sure many will be rushing off to buy a copy of the Qu'ran...do you understand it....without help??)

Of course they dont represent the wider muslim community Peggy, its ridiculious, but its just as ridiculous to say theres no connection with Islam.

The list Peggy put up. Isnt Saudi Arabia going by this law?

Yes I don't understand why Mohammed is revered, he sounds like a fallible human being. In the Hadith of Abu Dawud he talks about stoning a woman who has asked to be purified from adultery.

Jesus in contrast says "let he without sin cast the first stone"

I do agree Christianity has had it's share of violence too but often it is to do with power and control even.g Spanish Inquisition.

Often Christians have died for their faith as martyrs but not hurt others.

This thread's moved on a lot since I last posted. Sprinkles and others seem to be doing a good job of explaining things really well. Thank you all.

I was reading the Qur'an today and came across this verse about the kindness of Christians towards Muslims, which I thought I'd share as something positive (I hope someone doesn't find something negative to say about it!). It's in a chapter that discusses Jesus and his disciples. God says:

You will find the nearest of them in affection to the believers (i.e. to the Muslims) those who say: "We are Christians." That is because among them are priests and monks and because they are not arrogant.

Peggy, regarding your question about where to get more accurate information, the people who run this website might be able to direct you better:

www.leedsnewmuslims.org.uk

It's a site for English Muslims and Christians who have Muslim friends or family members. They organise events together, get together for meals, etc. Perhaps they can answer questions, too.

Caroline and peggy There are English translations of the Quran that are easy to read. I would recommend the versions by Talal Itani, Sahih International or N.J Dawood, if you are interested. Caroline if someone reads in classical Arabic it does get a bit more complicated, it can be read alongside tafsir (Quranic exegesis) which is used to provide further explanation and interpretation of the verses.
I'm still thinking thinking about the assimilate/integrate thing too, I have done for years to be honest. I think true integration, being a part of British society without losing or compromising who you are can be much harder than people realise, because so many people do not see that as integration at all.
Woodhill Muhammad pbuh was a human being, we don't believe he was the son of God or something like that, we believe that he was the best a human could be.

@woodhill

This is an interesting article about a study that found the Old and New Testaments contain more violence than the Qur'an:

www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/violence-more-common-in-bible-than-quran-text-analysis-reveals-a6863381.html%3famp

Stateless the Oxford University Press translation is also a really good translation. It was translated by a Professor at the University of London and is very easy to follow.

bringmesunshinetoo Thanks for adding adding that, I've heard of that version but haven't read it myself

Stateless - The OUP version doesn't include a tafseer/explanation, however, which I think is needed when reading the Quran, for context. 'The Noble Quran' includes explanatory notes, but is not as easy to follow.

Thanks for your link

I agree there is violence in the OT and it is the story of the Jews and their relationship with God. However the 10 commandments, thou shalt not kill. My quote was in the New Testament.

Also it is how people act in the 21st century which is important.

According to the study, there is also more violence in the New Teatament than the Quran, but you are correct - what's important is how people are behaving today.

Testament

I haven't really thought about the NT being violent.

I suppose things like Paul's treatment in jail but he rises above it or Ananias and Sapphiras dropping dead. The crucifixion is very violent and the treatment of Jesus beforehand. Is that the sort of thing?

bringmesunshinetoo I've read the Noble Quran version years ago and didn't like it to be honest. I think tafsir is handy for an English translation but not totally essential, I guess it depends on the readers pre existing knowledge, I imagine it would be useful for a non Muslim.
woodhill I read an article last year which stated that after analysis the Old Testament was found to be twice as violent than the Quran. I know that the New Testament contains much less but I was wondering if the New Testament actually states that the Old Testament is not to be followed. I'm sorry if it's an ignorant question, I have read it but it was a very very long time ago.

woodhill - the article doesn't mention specific verses in any of the three scriptures, but just states the results of the study found the OT to be the most violent, followed by the NT, and then the Quran.

I did a quick search online for examples and came across some, but I don't want to quote anything without knowledge and out of context. I just found the study very interesting since most people would assume the Quran contains the most violence.

I would like to know how these terrorists justify their beliefs and actions, though- I wonder if they actually say that they condone the killing of innocent people because of something they have read in the Quran, or do they say it's because of politics and the invasion of Muslim lands? I'd like to know how they 'justify' their evil.

I think as a Christian I am aware of it. e.g. 10 commandments. Some of it is about the situation the Jews are in. Also the lineage from David to Jesus is fascinating. Jesus's coming is talked about. The Psalms are amazing to read through and bring comfort in difficult times.

Jesus said in Mathew 5 that he came to fulfill the law rather than abolish it. I am no biblical scholar

I just think they enjoy killing, pure evil. I'm sure if they wanted to they could interpret the Quaran in a more peaceful way but they choose not to. Thank goodness no one takes literally what it says in the OT and the NT and acts on it. There's the difference. The ISis would take us back to the stone age.

lavenderhue I agree with you on that, I think they enjoy it too. Because they will twist the meaning of the Quran and completely ignore the context of their isolated verses to try and justify what they are doing. They look to obscure and weak hadith to try and find reasons to explain their flamboyant executions. In my opinion they aren't taking the Quran literally at all, they are ignoring almost all of it.

Lavenderhue the problem is in the past many have misinterpreted and acted on it. I don't and refuse to count it as part of faith because as Muslims we are taught that all religions are true and hence why when woodhill talk about the Ten Commandments, they apply to us Muslims as well as long as the Qur'an doesn't contradict it which it doesn't. We believe that Moses was a true Prophet of God, as was Jesus. Mary is one of the most revered females in the Qur'an. We believe in all the previous commandments because they came from God and Islam is simply an extension (almost like an updated version of a textbook to fit with the evolution of mankind and it's needs).

The reason I cannot go into the OT and NT violence argument is because again, you look the lives of the prophets and their early deciples. They weren't violent ergo whatever is in the scriptures demonstrating violence is either mininterpreted or incorrect.

Having said that someone mentioned the Abu Dawud Hadith of a woman asking to be punished for her adultery. I was discussing this question just a week back with my nephew who is studying to become an Imam. And he explained that this woman had committed adultery and was so ashamed of her sin that she came to the Prophet Muhammad, asking for a punishment. But the Holy Prophet refused. Then she came back, explaining that as a result she was pregnant and she deserved to be punished. But the Prophet sent her back, saying she was pregnant and had responsibility of another life and should focus on that. She came back after giving birth but the Prophet sent her back to nurture the child. Then she came back after two years of nursing the child but he said she should focus on raising him. When she came back after raising him, she asked again. At that point, there was no teachings in Islam about adultery (which later was 100 lashes if there are 4 witnesses which if you're discreet is quite unlike). However, the OT and its laws were there and because the woman knew that and wanted to be punished the Holy Prophet gave her the punishment and she accepted it. He then also attended her funeral later on and spoke highly of her as a mark of respect. So this woman knew the punishment under the OT and still continued coming back after repentance and forgiveness was shown to her. It was her choice ultimately. I can't fully comprehend it because I'm not her and I do not know how she felt.

That's the only case of stoning in the ahadith. And it was based on the teachings of Torah and later abolished under Islamic law.

The list Peggy put up. Isnt Saudi Arabia going by this law?

Significant parts of it, yes. That doesn't mean it is Sharia, just their perverted version of it. Saudi is an absolute monarchy where, just as was the case in the west before democracy took hold, the crown is in collusion with the church. Basically, the crown recognises the given church as the official state religion and allows it signigicant powers. The church in turn validates the monarch by recognising his divine right to rule. Between them, they oppress and control the general population for their own gain. I've spent time in saudi and qatar, another islamic absolute monarchy. The religious police are not popular (massive understatement) and certainly don't police by consent. Many british muslims are here because they, their parents or grandparents wanted to escape oppressive regimes, not because they wanted to create a new one.