AIBU - Understanding Islam

[peggypatch99]

Hello All, first post (lurker of years and years).

I watched the concert last night, very emotional and tears shed, but afterwards I have felt myself become so angry, and I am not sure at what exactly, the world? Terrorists? The Government?

So I wanted to educate myself better and understand more about Islam in the west, how we are perceived and what life is like for Muslim's - I see posts on facebook and sometimes I agree but without knowing the ins and outs, which led me to trying to understand the muslim way of life and separate muslims from Islamic radicals - some people seem to put these in the same category despite the fact the IRA did not represent the Irish Catholic community as a whole.

However I looked at a Muslim forum, and to be honest I was shocked and upset at how we in Britain are perceived.

The forum (I appreciate not all Muslims will think in this manner) seeks to demonstrate how as women we must be completely submissive, if we are not men are allowed to strike us. There are conversations about how we are unclean unless we have undergone FGM, how in Britain we need to be taught that there is only one god, how homosexuality is wrong and people should be punished.

I wondered if perhaps Muslim ladies would share their thoughts on the forum, as this is giving me a distressing understanding of the religion, when I thought that Islam was a peaceful religion - but striking wives, withholding sex - or punishing and sleeping with other women, seems to be encouraged.

(This is advise given to a husband)
Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.

I am probably coming across as not very educated on the matter, and that is true, but would be interested in what Mumsnet think of this forum and whether forums like this are perhaps clouding our judgement of the religion as a whole.

I am Christian and can't say I visit Christian forums as there are always those who take scripture and amend the meaning for their own aim.

Here is the forum:
www.ummah.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?158-Marriage

Thank you, please note I am not a troll, I am someone wanting to learn better and understand. I think part of the problem is that without being educated properly it leads to incorrect thoughts and feelings which are very raw post attacks.

I'm a Muslim Peggy and I from what I have been taught by my faith leader, it is a way of life. And it is extremely peaceful. What we see on these forums and in most, if not all 'Muslim countries' is monopolisation of the teachings and wrong application of what Islam says for their benefit. That's usually those in power; mysoginistic men.

When the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was alive, he foretold that this would happen. So what we see today is misinterpretation of the true and peaceful Islam I believe.

What these men (and women) refuse to follow and adhere is the countless teachings for them on the kind treatment of any woman. Just a couple of weeks ago, our spiritual leader gave a sermon on this which really shocked me: www.alislam.org/friday-sermon/2017-05-19.html (sorry unable to do clicky link- you can read a summary of the sermon if you click the summary tab).

And for me that's my Islam. Yes, men are told they are guardian over their women. But that's a positive thing. They are to protect and to provide for them in every way they can. If all Muslim men truly followed that you'd never see the downright cruel behaviour we see towards them by these ignorant men.

We are not extreme in iur views and just trying to muddle along like everyone else. I wear clothes similar to bonjovi girl. And we also share everything as a family. We listen to music, watch tv. Go ti the beach. Kids go swimming. We take trips to the farm etc just like everyone else.

I second everything sprinkles and bonjovi said

And purple violet. Sorry got purple and bonjovis posts mixed up. But everything they have advised is right

I work for a Muslim family and apart from the husband once making a jokey comment about his wife becoming 'too Westernised' because she didn't want to put on her coat when she left work one day, I haven't heard or seen anything that I would call sexist apart from the hijab wearing although I'm not sure about that (its a conflicting thought for me). The wife was the one that decided to open their business actually so she makes the decisions in that area. I don't know if he ever hits her but my gut feeling is that he doesn't, they seem a very happy and loving couple.

Of course what you could do OP is a bit of real research. Chat forums do not represent real life (including this one!)

Thanks Unicorn, I think you are right, I have been afraid of posting, but actually admitting to my ignorance I feel is the right step.

Morriszapp, I understand this point, but then I am thinking who tells us this, where do we read it? Do we then put these thoughts onto our own children?

I admit my daughter has asked me some questions and I don't know the answer, but I feel I understand more now to be able to say actually that is how some people interpret the Quran BUT this is not the views of all - before I made this post I didn't know that I thought the rules were the rules and everyone obeyed.

Firawala, scary this is top, when you think of young kids curious to know more and this is what they see? I think Teresa May might have a point about the internet....as I have never searched before, scary. (Won't again as I agree intelligence will be monitoring the views)

Gladallover - see I would disagree with you here, I wasn't brought up as a Christian, my parents wanted me to have choices (although I was christened - done thing in 70's). I actually found comfort from prayer after having postnatal depression about 16 years ago, that was my connection. My mum was a believer, my father wasn't.
I was never taught ' one god' I was taught that different people believe different things and that's ok.

I believe in God - as in the Christian god - BUT I don't ever think other gods are not real - actually I don't know anything about Allah, I don't know if the stories wouldn't correlate, I just have a respect for other people and don't force my views, or argue their views with them.

Does that make sense, I am trying to say what I mean but don't think it's coming out right !

KungFuEric - I'll try explain best I can. It made sense to me that hair is a part of beauty and my beauty isn't for 'non-mahram' (these are all the men that you can marry, so not your father brother nephew son etc). My beauty is for the person I chose to spend my life with (i.e. My husband). It can be interpreted in two ways - women are oppressed or women are so precious that they aren't to be gawped at. I've experienced a lot less male (Muslim and non Muslim) attention since wearing the hijab and generally when being spoken to by males (Muslim and non Muslim) they have more respect for me.

I should add that at home, amongst my family I have my hair styled nicely and do wear less moderate clothes if I feel like it.

I'm in my late 20's now and the hijab is just part of who I am; I wouldn't have it any other way.

Similarly men are encouraged to lower their gaze when dealing with women so I don't see the hijab as a female only thing , if that makes sense.

I'm not Muslim but following this thread with interest, I think it's interesting that I very rarely see Muslim women have a public space to talk about their views which will vary from woman to woman. The debates that go on between two of my closest friends, one who drinks and wears hijab, and one who is totally against wearing the hijab and doesn't drink but loves a Greggs sausage roll of a lunchtime are a sight to behold
I grew up in a fairly multicultural area and now live in a majority Asian area opposite a local mosque. It's only very recently in my memory that I was aware of some of the more negative perceptions of Islam, or negative elements of Islam which imo are not far removed from those I saw growing up Catholic. Overwhelmingly though I see my Muslim friends and the wider community donating their Zakat to food banks, hospitals, funding expensive operations for children who need to go abroad. I see my friends eating a bacon butty on the sly to sort out their hangover participating in big events and attending mosque as a family and with their community in the same way that the rest of us do. There are men who have unpleasant attitudes in the same way as our grandparents might have them and they get criticised for it, or ignored because it's a generational/cultural thing.

Thank you Jolly, what a very educating post for me and I hope others. I think that these are the kind of stories that should be shared with our children to help them understand, rather than the image being portrayed in the media now.

Thank you Livia, you know what, I think Mumsnet is the place to research as I can read lines of text of people who have written articles, but the real truth is by the muslim ladies kindly sharing their own personal stories. Ladies just like me, but who follow another religion.

I plan to do research also, but I am learning so much from these posts!

FGM isn't prevalent in Islamic cultures at all so I am extremely surprised that you found people discussing it on a mainstream Muslim forum.
I do have close friends and relatives who are Muslim both in this country and outside the UK and while I know they aren't representative of all muslims they are genuinely just regular people.
The women enjoy sex with their husbands and enjoy dressing up in lingerie and nice outfits at home. They earn their own money and dress how they please (more modestly than English women, but not to an extreme)
They like music and dancing and go crazy at weddings and other celebrations where dancing happens.

I echo jollys post also - the hijab is my badge to say that I am Muslim. It is my connection with God. I would also like to say my husband has never commented for or against the hijab - he just respects me for me and is supportive in whatever I decide.

Peggy - we believe Christianity Judaism and Islam all essentially have the same principles. We believe Jesus and Moses were Prophet's sent down to spread religion (amongst many others - Abraham, Noah, Ishmael, Isaac, John , Jacob etc etc). Muhammad was the last Prophet and each Prophet brought with Him a bit more of the message. Therefore we believe we all pray to the same God.

Thank you peggy. Our kids are taught our religion and taught to be kind to everything and everyone. We try not to kill spiders insects even if possible. So if we are kind to insects it would be obvious not to kill innocent human beings. We try and pray. We arent perfect and could do better because we are only human. Our kids ask questiins and we answer as best as we can. My best advise is if the answer you find to your questions sounds odd. It ptobably is. Islam is so similar to the other religions.

I would like to add also i am a convert(before marriage) so i hope it shows not all these converts are extremists. I have another friend who converted and lives as i/we do

You can't judge anything by one web forum. Forums develop their own culture over time, no matter what the area of interest. Often, especially when moderation is poor or biased, those with the stronger, more antisocial views manage to take control by bullying the more moderate, less confrontational users into silence. I'll bet if you looked around you'd find different muslim oriented forums with a range of characters from extremely conservative to progressive and liberal. I'd also hazard a guess that the majority of UK muslims don't use any of these forums just as the majority of christians, jews, hindus or sikhs probably don't feel the need to seek out forums dedicated to discussing their religion.

OP, just to go back to your original question, the Qur'an and Hadith (statements of the Prophet) unequivocally prohibit beating the wife (or anyone for that matter). The Prophet made many statements to clearly prohibit men from hitting their wives. Statements such as:

• Narrated Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri: "I went to the Apostle of Allah (peacebeupon_him) and asked him: What do you say (command) about our wives? He replied: Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them. (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Number 2139)"

• Narrated Mu'awiyah ibn Haydah: "I said: Apostle of Allah, how should we approach our wives and how should we leave them? He replied: Approach your tilth when or how you will (i.e. have sexual relations with them), give her (your wife) food when you take food, clothe when you clothe yourself, do not revile her face, and do not beat her. (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Number 2138)"

The Prophet said in his farewell sermon:
"Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers. "

The Qur'an also commands men to be gentle and look after women:

"O you who believe! It is not permitted for you to inherit women against their will. And do not coerce them in order to take away some of what you had given them (i.e. their dowry), unless they commit a proven adultery. And live with them in kindness." (Qur'an: 4;19)

In relation to the verse you quoted, first of all it is in a relation to when a spouse has already had two warnings for conducting an extra marital affair but continues to have an affair. But more importantly the above is a mis-translation. A more accurate translation of this verse is:

"Husbands should take good care of their wives, with" [the boun-
ties] God has given to some more than others and with what they
spend out of their own money. Righteous wives are devout and guard
what God would have them guard in their husbands' absence. As for those women whom you are experiencing a fear of disloyalty from, you shall first advice them, then (if they continue) you may desert them in bed, then you may strike them out (of your house). If they obey you then don't transgress against them. God is Most High, Supreme" (4:34).

The verse quoted in the OP's statement (or any other verse for that matter) does not refer to beating women, rather 'striking them out' from your house if they continue to conduct an extra marital affair despite you having given them two warnings to stop. To me that is actually very fair, considering I would probably chuck my DH out in the very first instance if he had an affair and betrayed me!

Thank you, I really appreciate all the posts today, I think I feel a little bit more knowledgeable, I think children today are taught more about religion today than we were years ago.

It is a shame I didn't have such an education and therefore have been ignorant for many years, but I feel it's time to go and learn more and be able to explain to my children the actual truth rather than what they hear in the playground!

@peggypatch99 If you have any more questions please let me know (PM me). Also, if you like (and feel comfortable), I'd be happy to post you some books about Islam (and if so PM me your address please).

Sunegg - thank you, this is precisely what I mean and how we can be blinded by being ignorant.

I read that on the forum and without question thought that was true and that was the way muslim women are treated.

I have had my eyes opened today!

Thank you ! I am actually just looking on Amazon at the moment, to see what I can buy to learn more.

I think especially in today's climate, it's so important to ask questions. It opens dialogue and we so need more of that. ☺️

Me and my husband are part of this charity:
www.dialoguesociety.org/speakers.html
It was designed to bring people of all faitgs or non faith together and share. Have a look. The right organisations exist but more people need to want to find them. We have joined forces with the police and had meetings with the PM and mps to advise on what our religion is about and condemning the terrorists. But no one will tell you about these things

The ideal muslimah (female) and the ideal Muslim (male) are both excellent books.

These terror attacks taken by people who claim to be Muslim infuriate me

No true Scotsman.

It's always going to be a hard sell convincing western women that Islam treats men and women equally when there is visible evidence to the apparent contrary

This^