AIBU - Understanding Islam

[peggypatch99]

Hello All, first post (lurker of years and years).

I watched the concert last night, very emotional and tears shed, but afterwards I have felt myself become so angry, and I am not sure at what exactly, the world? Terrorists? The Government?

So I wanted to educate myself better and understand more about Islam in the west, how we are perceived and what life is like for Muslim's - I see posts on facebook and sometimes I agree but without knowing the ins and outs, which led me to trying to understand the muslim way of life and separate muslims from Islamic radicals - some people seem to put these in the same category despite the fact the IRA did not represent the Irish Catholic community as a whole.

However I looked at a Muslim forum, and to be honest I was shocked and upset at how we in Britain are perceived.

The forum (I appreciate not all Muslims will think in this manner) seeks to demonstrate how as women we must be completely submissive, if we are not men are allowed to strike us. There are conversations about how we are unclean unless we have undergone FGM, how in Britain we need to be taught that there is only one god, how homosexuality is wrong and people should be punished.

I wondered if perhaps Muslim ladies would share their thoughts on the forum, as this is giving me a distressing understanding of the religion, when I thought that Islam was a peaceful religion - but striking wives, withholding sex - or punishing and sleeping with other women, seems to be encouraged.

(This is advise given to a husband)
Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.

I am probably coming across as not very educated on the matter, and that is true, but would be interested in what Mumsnet think of this forum and whether forums like this are perhaps clouding our judgement of the religion as a whole.

I am Christian and can't say I visit Christian forums as there are always those who take scripture and amend the meaning for their own aim.

Here is the forum:
www.ummah.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?158-Marriage

Thank you, please note I am not a troll, I am someone wanting to learn better and understand. I think part of the problem is that without being educated properly it leads to incorrect thoughts and feelings which are very raw post attacks.

It never occurred to me that it could be a sign of respect so to speak.

Yes, men are encouraged to lower their gaze with women they are not married/related to. This is, as you note, a sign of modesty/respect, not out of a sense of superiority.

Mission there is no thumb emoticon on MN (up or down!)

The reality is most Muslim men and women watch films, socialise with the opposite sex, have access to social media, etc.

Oh yes Leila, I know that, about 70% of my office are Muslim and we go out to eat, go to events, go to bars sometimes where some will drink and some will not. I was just specifically wondering about the hair question it's something I've wanted to know but feel uncomfortable asking someone irl and find it easier on a forum iyswim.

Interesting thread. Thanks for starting it OP and ty too to the Muslim women sharing their experience and understanding.

Perhaps in your view, user, it isn't equal. Perhaps equality doesn't trump fairness and as a follower of the faith it frustrates me when people tell me I'm wrong for believing and supporting something that does not negatively impact them.

Muslims are expected (rightly so) to accept every other way of life but then a few others constantly belittle us for beliefs we actively choose, understand and accept. In no shape or form does it affect anyone else negatively.

In terms of the 4 witnesses of women for contractual trials, here's a link that provides one explanation. www.alislam.org/library/WOMANINISLAM.pdf (Relevant Chapter starts on page 23, that exact verse is mentioned in page 25).

I also want to really thank those who have said nothing but kind words here. It really is uplifting. Thank you .

I converted when before I married my husband, completely my choice after learning about it. In fact, the Imam asked me several times if I was doing it of my own free will as to be forced to by anyone is a grave sin.

My husband & I have our beliefs, & they are personal to us, not something we force on others but if asked questions we're happy to answer. We believe in living a good life, helping others, being kind, tolerant, respectful & open minded, showing forgiveness, supporting charities, working hard & counting our blessings, even when it's hard too.

My husband loves me, supports me & values me beyond all measure, never once has he raised a hand to me & I know he never would. We are best friends & ours is a marriage of equals in every respect (financially, emotionally, in terms of housework & childcare). We enjoy all the same things any other young couple with young children do.

Most of our friends are not Muslim due to where we live & we are treated no differently to anyone else. Equally, when we go home to DH's home country (moderate Islamic country) there is a fabulous blend of Muslim men & women getting on & living their lives just as we do here.

So why are Christians often so badly treated in Islamic countries?

Muslims are treated badly in Muslim majority countries, minorities are treated even worse. Religion alone cant be blamed because those countries are under a dictatorship or where civil liberties are severly curtailed.

I'll just leave this here:
wikiislam.net/wiki/Women_are_Deficient_in_Intelligence

I was really enjoying learning about islam until mistress mia surfaced with her axe to grind.

user if you want people to listen to you try to find slightly more credible websites to link to, you're making yourself look silly

You want another source? Okay. This booklet is meticulously researched and referenced. Every single statement is supported with surah and hadith.
Anyone wanting to know what Islam's religious texts really say should read this:
inconvenienttruthweb.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/islam-the-inconvenient-truth.pdf

User, did you even read my link? Unlike 'wikiislam' that book was written by the first Asian to preside over the UN General Assembly, the International Court of Justice and a Foreign Minister in Pakistan.

user1496662851

No it's not, just by looking at the first point. But as you're unwilling to be open minded and read anything to disprove your misaligned views, I'll save it for someone who wants to learn instead.

user - Violence against women is not sanctioned in the Quran, the Arabic word to 'strike' or beat also means to separate, leave, to turn away.

Re the hijab and other head, body, hair coverings..... always strikes me as pretty demeaning to men (including other people's partners etc) that they are assumed to be 'ogling' other women's hair! Also odd that many hijab wearers claim to be hiding their beauty while slapping on a ton of face and eye makeup. (Many of my Muslim friends agree this is absurd).
Solution could be that Muslim men cover their eyes instead?

Totally agree you can find extreme Christian as well as extreme Muslim forums. Many that follow Old Testament teachings would scare the bejazzus out of you if you were right thinking.

Except for all the typos and lack of objectivity in that 'meticulously researched and referenced' piece of anti-Muslim propoganda.

I suppose the writer translated the Arabic themselves and grasped all the nuances of the language in their meticulous approach to understanding Islam.

What garbage.

Oh that was aimed at the link provided by user

"Pretending it has something to do with Islam is an insult to the religion, an insult to the victims and gives the perpetrators an excuse. They're murdering arseholes. That is all."

As they stabbed people on London Bridge, these men were shouting "This is for Allah". Are you suggesting that I'm 'pretending it has something to do with Islam'? Or that they were..?

I don't disagree that jihadists are also often petty criminals; I don't disagree that they also quite often turn out to be drug-users; I certainly don't disagree that they are always 'murdering arseholes'; however, it is disingenuous in the extreme to pretend that fidelity to their 'shade' of Islam had nothing to do with their actions.

That doesn't mean that there aren't millions of Muslims who would never dream of behaving similarly, but the discussion is not advanced by refusing to call a spade a spade.

One would generally assume that someone claiming expert knowledge of a given religion would be a follower themselves. It's an understandable assumption to make but you all know the old saying about assumptions. User's debating style reminds me uncannily of various far-right islamophobes i have seen on other forums. I can only guess where they get their references from but i imagine on their own septic little corners of the Internet there are little groups of them (the few capable of creative thinking) who look up passages from the Quran and construct arguments based on them to suit their own agenda. Just throwing that out there so that people who think User might have valid personal experience of islam to draw on may be anything but. There's every chance she is a proud "indigenous British", Anglo-Saxon bloke who goes on Britain First and EDL marches.

sprinkles, interesting you have linked to that document as an authoritative source when a quick read through shows it says westerners are all perverted and sluts and advocates domestic violence.

Nice.

Herotherhalf
Spot on - USER is an unintelligent 'grab a quote' donkey brain that lurk around such forums as these imagining they are fully informed and ready to share the wisdom.

SunEgg...so God can't think of anything better to stop men from treating women and girls as worthless, than to tell them nicely to please be good to us?? Really??

Jesus was somewhat superior to Muhammad in that He stood up for women by His ACTIONS....while Muhammad had three wives, including a nine year old!

Though it shares its roots with Judaism and Christianity (and Jesus and various other Biblical figures feature in the Quran), it's developed into a completely different, extremely archaic by current standards, religion.

The main reason for this is that Christians etc. are taught that the Bible is not the word of God, but is the retelling/recollection of countless different people. Effectively, that means that the Bible is open to interpretation and scrutiny and that it needs to be considered in its context.

The Quran is the "direct word of Allah via the Prophet Muhammad", which means that it has to be taken it face value with no room for interpretation. It's even supposed to be read in the original Arabic - though many Muslims do not do this now. The verses that ISIS rely upon are in the Quran. Those who say they aren't "real Muslims" are sweeping the issue under the rug. The problem is inherently in the religion.

And I'm an atheist, so no bias towards any religion from me.

while Muhammad had three wives, including a nine year old

And we have a full house. I was just wondering how long it would be before someone introduced the "Islam condones paedophilia" bullshit.

So Half, you condone nine year old girls marrying old men? Instead of playing Bingo, how about you find that revolting?