AIBU - Understanding Islam

[peggypatch99]

Hello All, first post (lurker of years and years).

I watched the concert last night, very emotional and tears shed, but afterwards I have felt myself become so angry, and I am not sure at what exactly, the world? Terrorists? The Government?

So I wanted to educate myself better and understand more about Islam in the west, how we are perceived and what life is like for Muslim's - I see posts on facebook and sometimes I agree but without knowing the ins and outs, which led me to trying to understand the muslim way of life and separate muslims from Islamic radicals - some people seem to put these in the same category despite the fact the IRA did not represent the Irish Catholic community as a whole.

However I looked at a Muslim forum, and to be honest I was shocked and upset at how we in Britain are perceived.

The forum (I appreciate not all Muslims will think in this manner) seeks to demonstrate how as women we must be completely submissive, if we are not men are allowed to strike us. There are conversations about how we are unclean unless we have undergone FGM, how in Britain we need to be taught that there is only one god, how homosexuality is wrong and people should be punished.

I wondered if perhaps Muslim ladies would share their thoughts on the forum, as this is giving me a distressing understanding of the religion, when I thought that Islam was a peaceful religion - but striking wives, withholding sex - or punishing and sleeping with other women, seems to be encouraged.

(This is advise given to a husband)
Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.

I am probably coming across as not very educated on the matter, and that is true, but would be interested in what Mumsnet think of this forum and whether forums like this are perhaps clouding our judgement of the religion as a whole.

I am Christian and can't say I visit Christian forums as there are always those who take scripture and amend the meaning for their own aim.

Here is the forum:
www.ummah.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?158-Marriage

Thank you, please note I am not a troll, I am someone wanting to learn better and understand. I think part of the problem is that without being educated properly it leads to incorrect thoughts and feelings which are very raw post attacks.

Domestic abuse is prevalent in Islamic cultures and countries as it is in non Islamic cultures. I think the difference is that there is little support for women to leave abusive marriages in Islamic communities as marriage is considered for life and ordained by god. Islamic countries also don't tend to have welfare systems so if you leave your husband you could end up destitute.
3 of my Muslim friends have left their abusive husbands and all been supported by their families. They are lucky. But I think it's absolutely wrong to see domestic abuse as a Muslim problem. It's a patriarchy and male violence problem.

Very interesting thread! I work with lots of Muslim men, but we don't get the chance for in-depth conversation really, they are taxi drivers and I'm an operator. After Manchester, I was worried for their safety tbh, they have to deal with a lot of abuse and violence on a day to day basis as it is.

I'd certainly like to know more. Although obviously you can't learn everything from a forum like this, it's definitely helpful for some insight into Muslim women's lifestyle.

Thanks Jolly, I will look at the site, anything to bring together than apart is a good thing I feel.

Thanks purple for the recommendations!

Ollie, I read something that I find difficult - not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslim - I have seen this do the rounds on Facebook - you can see why people who are uneducated about the matter zone in on those comments and then think Islam as a religion is bad. I want to learn the good and peaceful Islam I am reading about on this forum to educate my children.

If we look at the IRA, we didn't then think all Catholics were bad, we knew it was an extreme few (I would say here however I was young in the 80's so probably didn't pay as much attention) - but in this day and age, the hatred for Muslims is more wide - is it because of the media? People have access to forums like the one I posted originally?

Whatever it is, this is a sad world right now :(

@AdalindSchade

But I think it's absolutely wrong to see domestic abuse as a Muslim problem. It's a patriarchy and male violence problem.

I agree!

I think the difference is that there is little support for women to leave abusive marriages in Islamic communities as marriage is considered for life and ordained by god.

Culturally yes, people tend to think marriage is for life. But in the Muslim community within the Prophet's life, there were many many divorces and divorce was very common, and it was very easy to re-marry as well. Divorce didn't have the stigma it has today unfortunately.

Even when the IRA were at their violent peak, most British people knew Catholics (or indeed were Catholic themselves). It's hard to say "all Catholics are bombers" if you live next door to Mrs Reilly who sends you a lovely mass card at Easter.

Many British people don't know any Muslims - particularly in rural areas. It's easier to fear something you don't know.

True enough. Just like any religions, there are variances due to the prevailing cultures. Saudi Arabia for example would probably still be an oppressive regime if the religion was a sect of Christianity rather than Islam.

All terrorists are not Muslim though. Just days ago a white fundamentalist murdered 2 men on public transport in the US. He stood in the dock shouting death to enemies of America.

I find all the posts on how Muslim men are meant to treat 'their' women really, really unsettling!! All the supposedly great passages from Muhammad telling men how to treat women just reads as if one is being told how to treat a a lesser creature! Like - be kind to animals! Why the feck does it not just say that men are equal to women!!! All this stuff about telling men we are precious and to treat us as special - we are HUMANS!! Just like them! I find that stuff to be so offensive!

And it is ludicrous that people mention the Westboro Baptist group as a way to slag off Christianity whilst attempting to help Islam. That is ONE FAMILY in the world. Somewhat different to the murderous and evil Wahabi form of Islam that is becoming more and more widespread.

MrsHathaway - the troubles in NI were political. Nationalists were treated like second class citizens in their own country. They weren't joining the IRA because of their Catholic beliefs you know!

Terrorists aren't joining ISIL because of their religion either, you numpty.

@LastGirlOnTheLeft

I find all the posts on how Muslim men are meant to treat 'their' women really, really unsettling!! All the supposedly great passages from Muhammad telling men how to treat women just reads as if one is being told how to treat a a lesser creature! Like - be kind to animals! Why the feck does it not just say that men are equal to women!!! All this stuff about telling men we are precious and to treat us as special - we are HUMANS!! Just like them! I find that stuff to be so offensive!

You have to understand the context of when it was said. It was said 1,600 years ago when ill treatment towards women (pre-Islam) was celebrated, to the extent that girls were buried alive in Arabia just for being female! Similarly, at the same time in Europe, women were treated worse than chattel.

Personally I have a slight problem with people who compare the Bible and the Quran when trying to show that you can derive extreme positions from either.

The Bible is accepted to (purport to) be an account of things that happened, telling us about what God and Jesus said and did. It allows room for doubt and room for interpretation. It allows people to point at those nutjob fundamentalists and say that the old covenant is irrelevant when said nutjobs quote Leviticus. It allows people to view the more abhorrent aspects in light of the culture of the time, and changing morality.

The Quran, on the other hand, is supposed to be the literal word of Allah. Valid for all times. Leaving far less room for interpretation, and a hell of a lot less room for arguments about morality of the time in which it was written.

Like ollieplimsoles, I'm also not a fan of the no true Scotsman fallacy, which is so often employed in these cases.

Relevant cross-post...

The reason the Catholics weren't vilified during IRA times was because the IRA never claimed to nor murdered in the name of Catholicism.

I've seen far, far more Christian/Western (right wing, white supremacist, make America great kind of thing) forums espousing those same kind of vile bigoted attitudes than Muslim ones.

There are terrible people in all walks of life, and one thing they have in common in exploiting religion or ideology to promote their own views. Even if we got rid of all religion and the entire world became atheist, hate-fuelled bigots would still be protesting against women's rights or GLBT rights or whatever exploiting science (eugenics, genetic purity) or sociology/politics (communism) to support their stance.

Interesting interpretation. Many Muslim scholars say those Hadiths only apply to day-to-day living, but that if a wife has done something that merits punishment, a husband can beat her.

Q4:34 absolutely does not translate as 'you may strike her out of the house' - the literal translation is 'scourge' or 'strike' there is no reference to 'out of the house' whatsoever. All scholars agree that this Surah refers to physical chastisement.

I am not Muslim but have very good friends who are and have know their families for decades.
They certainly didn't push there religious ideas onto me. I used to go out clubbing with them regularly and get drunk (me drinking not them). They were fine with this. I even slept over at there parents house. There was no problem. The muslims I know are all moderate - no wife bashing or submissive women. They all have professional jobs.
They all go to pop concerts/clubbing/theatre/restaurants/bars/cinema etc. just like everyone else.
They are utterly disgusted by the isil incidents.

Last Girl

Sunegg is so right - It was said 1,600 years ago when ill treatment towards women (pre-Islam) was celebrated.

I mentioned Westboro to show how someone can google Christianity and could be faced with that!

The bible states (depending on how you interpret) that all gay people should be killed. I may be a Christian but the world has changed, and in some ways for the better!

I used to go on ummah forum years ago, it did definitely get weird. I don't think most forums are a very reliable source of accurate information. I'm surprised though at the things you read on there though as they contradict Islam. I'm a British Muslim too. Fwiw my husband doesn't beat me, force or withhold sex, punish me, sleep with other women, support FGM, have a problem with homosexuality or believe I should be completely submissive. No decent man of any (or no) religion would think or behave like that.

My local mosque had an open day and I found it really useful to go and talk to some women there. They made me realise that some of the awkward behaviour of a convert friend of mine might be her interpretation/understanding of certain 'rules' rather than what Islam was all about.

But we are equal! This is what the Qur'an says:

33:36 'Surely, men who submit themselves to God and women who submit themselves to Him, and believing men and believing women, and obedient men and obedient women and truthful men and truthful women, and men steadfast in their faith and steadfast women, and men who are humble and women who are humble, and men who give alms and women give alms, and men who fast and women who fast, and men who guard their chastity and women who guard their chastity, and men who remember Allah much and women who remember Him — Allah has prepared for all of them forgiveness and a great reward.'

That highlights the equality. SunEgg is right- these teachings were when women had no right whatsoever. Some tribal areas would bury newborn girls alive, others would trade women etc. Sons inherited their mothers on the father's demise. Their rights were non existent. So yes, they were treated worse than animals.

I think many of the Muslim women posters have clarified that they feel anything but 'lesser' to their partners.

How interesting, I had never heard of no true Scotsman, have just looked up the meaning.

One thing I don't understand, and this is with respect.

Muslims who feel so passionately that we in the west are wrong (specifically women, dressing, what we do) and do not allow their children to integrate with non Muslims, do you think they have any respect for the UK as a place and our customs, or are they hoping that everyone else will become a Muslim like them and then UK will be an Islamic country?

Is that what terrorists (badly) try to do? Blow people up to teach them a lesson that the way we live is wrong in their eyes and we have to obey their warped version of the Quran?

Hope that question doesn't come across as rude, I think it is clear that 'Muslim' and 'terrorist' are two completely different things.

Women are "property" within the three monotheistic/ patriarchal religions. They inherently have nothing to further the life of women. The tension is about how religion "reacts" to the modern world. Extreme sects in different faiths reject modernity. That in itself can be peaceful (really strict Amish) but it can also result in horrific responses. The problem is very much internal to these religions. Some have "accepted" a veneer of modernity and equality you could even suggest ethics but they're ALL at a moments risk of falling under the sway of more "hardline" individuas or groups. All of them. BUT rational society cannot imprison everyone within an extreme group - because rational society will only punish actions. Not thoughts. Religion however seeks to change thoughts. The tension will always exsist.

Well firstly, I don't completely believe you're genuine, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.” (Ephesians 5:22)

“I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” (1 Timothy 2:12)

“In the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.” (Romans 1:27)

Just a few examples of not-so-peaceful passages from the bible.

Do all Christian men expect their women to obey them? No? Neither do Muslims. Do You get muslim abusive twat husbands? Yes, just the same as you'd get Christian abusive twats and Jewish, Hindu etc. In humanity it's generally accepted that hitting someone is wrong, so why would any sane person do this? A majority of Muslim men (like my dh) are caring, helpful and loving. Just because a passage from the Quran or Bible may or may not promote wife bashing many sane normal people will sort their problems out with dialogue and not their hands. A bad person will interpret something badly imp.

Do all Christians condemn gay people? No? Neither do Muslims. Yes it's a taboo subject in Islam, but wasn't it a very taboo subject here in the uk too until very recently? Even now, many footballers hide their sexuality. Many people hid their sexuality with fear of backlash in the 60's 70's 80's 90's. Islam is a new religion compared to Christianity, it needs time to grow. Saying that, I know many gay people and I don't care because they're going to their grave and I'm going to mine. How they choose to live their life isn't my business.

FGM is a cultural ritual. It is prevalent in a few African countries And has nothing to do with Islam. Infact, even circumcision isn't mentioned in the Quran itself but is "sunnah" meaning it's something the prophet did so the followers are encouraged to do it too. There is no penalty if you don't. My dad wasn't circumcised (that was an interesting discovery...not!) and he wasn't any less Muslim.

I guess what my main point is, is that Muslims aren't one homogenous mass. We don't all think and do the same thing, because we're humans. Every culture interprets Islam differently. But trust me, many many many many Muslims here in the UK are peaceful people just wanting to get on with life like anyone else. We worry about our kids, our house, our friends and families like normal people. We don't condone the killing of people. Basic humanity teaches us this.