AIBU - Understanding Islam

[peggypatch99]

Hello All, first post (lurker of years and years).

I watched the concert last night, very emotional and tears shed, but afterwards I have felt myself become so angry, and I am not sure at what exactly, the world? Terrorists? The Government?

So I wanted to educate myself better and understand more about Islam in the west, how we are perceived and what life is like for Muslim's - I see posts on facebook and sometimes I agree but without knowing the ins and outs, which led me to trying to understand the muslim way of life and separate muslims from Islamic radicals - some people seem to put these in the same category despite the fact the IRA did not represent the Irish Catholic community as a whole.

However I looked at a Muslim forum, and to be honest I was shocked and upset at how we in Britain are perceived.

The forum (I appreciate not all Muslims will think in this manner) seeks to demonstrate how as women we must be completely submissive, if we are not men are allowed to strike us. There are conversations about how we are unclean unless we have undergone FGM, how in Britain we need to be taught that there is only one god, how homosexuality is wrong and people should be punished.

I wondered if perhaps Muslim ladies would share their thoughts on the forum, as this is giving me a distressing understanding of the religion, when I thought that Islam was a peaceful religion - but striking wives, withholding sex - or punishing and sleeping with other women, seems to be encouraged.

(This is advise given to a husband)
Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.

I am probably coming across as not very educated on the matter, and that is true, but would be interested in what Mumsnet think of this forum and whether forums like this are perhaps clouding our judgement of the religion as a whole.

I am Christian and can't say I visit Christian forums as there are always those who take scripture and amend the meaning for their own aim.

Here is the forum:
www.ummah.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?158-Marriage

Thank you, please note I am not a troll, I am someone wanting to learn better and understand. I think part of the problem is that without being educated properly it leads to incorrect thoughts and feelings which are very raw post attacks.

Not entirely sure Peggy because like you said, it's so far from the Islamic faith. I don't understand them. I think again, it's their way of suppressing others and justifying their way of life. Yet, love for your country is an integral part of Islam. Like Christianity, loving your neighbour is also a huge deal in Islam. How can you do those things with such bigoted views about the 'western culture'? You can't can you. I suppose it's a superiority thing. Looking down on people, thinking you are so much better than them. Yet, the quranic verse I posted mentions humility as one of the essential characteristics of a believer. So it does not reconcile with Islam.

I think their thinking is probably more to prevent their spouses and children to integrate with the 'corrupt western world' and then demand basic rights and freedoms. But that is my speculation only.

Actually Ephesians goes on:22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing[a] her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body.

Just shows that selective quotation can be misleading. And yes in a lot of misogynistic Churches the second bit is read much less than the first. As after all loving your wife as "Christ loves the Church" means self sacrifice even unto death.

The people who commit these awful acts are not Muslim at all. They are fundamentalist nutters who have adopted 'Islam' as a means of justification.

Titus is worse than Ephesians IMHO.

2v3 Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. 4 Then they can urge the younger women to love their husbands and children, 5 to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.

The 10 commandments are meant to be the literal word of the Christian god. In them he commanded:

"Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is thy neighbour's."

That clearly implies that god considers a wife to be the property of her husband and he is also condoning slavery. Is that what all 21st century christians believe too? Of course it isn't, so why do people keep trying to insist that the Quran can be used to determine the values of every Muslim, especially those born and bred in the UK?

Thank you, I can assure you I am genuine, in fact I have nearly posted over the years for advice, but I usually hang out in AIBU reading, (Niace ham, pombears, penis beaker- the usual) I am a normal I think Mum of 2 (both Aspergers) husband, cat dog, work fulltime.

What I am not, is clued up on many things, hence my OP.

Thank you @hatesummer, I totally understand your point! and with regards to the bible, you are totally right too!

EnidBlyton exactly.

They inherently have nothing to further the life of women There are millions of women, happily following religion and having their lives enriched by it who would not agree.

I think lack of integration a lot of the time is down to a fear of losing one's identity and faith and for immigrants especially there is sometimes a fear of the unknown. I personally struggled as a teenager to find a balance between fitting in and being muslim and only felt better when I stopped trying.

FGM- I think depends more on culture than religion. Many Muslims wouldn't do this and are disgusted at those who force people to. Islam is no different to Christianity in the sense that it spans many cultures and countries and all those countries have their own normal.

One God - yes, Allah just means god. Christians, Jews, Muslims, technically all pray to the same God.

For most Muslims I know, they respect women deeply. Of course I've come across some who don't, but that's with every group of people really. That's why an atheist can still beat his wife and have no remorse.

As you say with the Christian forums, these places are not usually the best place to get to know a religion. Look how many people are brainwashed in any religion just because of crap they read online. Look how many terrorists have started their journey to terrorism online.

I'd say the best thing to do is just get to know Muslims. You might have a Muslim neighbour, pop round on Eid with a card perhaps. They're just like normal people really, and normal people have amazing people amongst them and savages amongst them. You probably have some Muslims around you, just ask them questions they shouldn't mind if you're not antagonist with it and just asking as you are here. I think this is why it's so important people mix with others, so there's less divide and more understanding between different faiths and races. I had a close group of friends, we were very tight, there was a Christian, a muslim, a Christian to muslim convert, an atheist and a Satanist! And we all understood each other well. That's one reason I love very diverse areas, people have to mix, and then there's less misunderstanding and just see each other the same way.

Before all this terror shit started, in many countries Muslims and Christians were living side by side and had no problems. I once went to Nigeria, and the first building I saw on leaving the airport was a huge thing with a cross and a crescent on it. I asked the driver and he said it's a mosque and a church in a very matter of fact way as if everybody lived so peacefully together. A Christian would celebrate Eid with their Muslim friends and a muslim would celebrate Christmas with their Christian friends. Both religious holidays were national holidays. It was beautiful to see. Obviously boko haram has made them a lot more divided now.

Anyway, during this time of Ramadan when people are making a big effort to be closer to God and be decent people, it could be the perfect opportunity to ask some people around you more about their religion.

One of my parents is muslim and the other is Christian, and honestly, growing up so closely with both, they really aren't much different at all.

Is that what all 21st century christians believe too? Of course it isn't, so why do people keep trying to insist that the Quran can be used to determine the values of every Muslim, especially those born and bred in the UK?

My post was not an attempt to defend the Bible, nor was it an attempt to claim anything about what all Muslims believe. It was simply a rejection of certain arguments that are commonly made, one of which was, indeed, made in the post I cross-posted with.

My stance is ultimately anti-religion. Both books can be used to effectively disprove the existence of the gods they claim exist. But they are not entirely equivalent, and arguments made about e.g. moderate Christianity and varying interpretations are not automatically as valid when discussing the Quran.

People who clearly hate Muslims are frequently told to actually read the Quran and get an insight into Islam when they make copy-pasted points that demonstrate their ignorance. It is my opinion that a hell of a lot of apologists should do the same.

Islam was definitely progressive in women's rights for 7th century, the problem lies with those who refuse to move forward and want us to return to 7th century because they want to relive a period where politically they were influential and powerful. Saudi Arabia with its deep pockets is leading this message, they fund Islamic education and institutions in Muslim countries and in the West. Their version of Islam is backward, violent and full of hatred for anyone different, unfortunately this is the message which is heard by majority of Muslims.

Thanks, so I presume this is why the memes are doing the rounds of the PM shaking hands with Saudi politicians?

I wish I knew what the answer was, I bet we all do, I think I have realised through this post that I am angry with terrorists.

I am not angry at Muslims, and I have had my eyes opened and the opportunity to hear from Muslim women who live happy lives and are not oppressed.

But, there are some (like in every religion) that want to dominate and are against UK customs and traditions and want us to change.

That it isn't religion - it is EVIL that separates us from terrorists.

That in order to live in a happier safe place, we need to do more to demonstrate our common beliefs than make issues between our opposing views.

That I can't believe after gosh about 15 years I finally made a post and will be obsessed with posting on threads rather than just reading!

The savage terrorists definitely are a separate thing from religion, and that's exactly why more Muslims have been killed by terrorists than anybody else in the world. They have to live alongside them in dangerous places and they're getting killed daily because they aren't with the terrorists. Thousands upon thousands of Muslims have been killed by terrorists, and trust me, they hate terrorists just as much as the next person and are just as fearful.

It's like when you hear of many British and Americans going for sex tourism and having sex with exploited children. The rest of us are disgusted by it, don't condone it, would be horrified if anybody we knew was doing it, but they're still travellinh to these places and having sex with children. They don't represent Britain at all and certainly aren't a representation of the British way of life, just like terrorists don't represent Islam.

Oh also op, I've seen lots of "peace" events where Muslim, Christian and Jewish leaders get together with tons of worshipers from their faiths. There's one group that I know of because somebody i know belongs to it, muslim and Jewish women, it sounds nice when she tells me about it.
There was a thing recently close to me, where a Jewish and a Muslim school got together to hold a concert with some of kids from both schools signing songs together on stage for the other kids.

Then I've seen other things on YouTube and stuff talking about what a tragedy this is, how bad those people are, they're not true believers etc. I think online anything is just awful for these things sometimes and doesn't always represent how we live in real life.

It's true that Muslims are executed by Islamic extremists in huge numbers: this is because they are considered to have apostatised: they are not living as 'true' Muslims should. Ironically, Christians, if they pay the Islamic tax and 'submit' (Islam literally translates as 'submission', btw), may escape with their lives.

British sex tourists are not committing their crimes because they are British; the analogy does not work. Islamic extremists are committing their crimes precisely because they are Muslim, not in spite of the fact. I'm afraid it's simply not true to say (as many Muslims have, after recent events) that anyone who murders innocent people in the name of Islam is NOT a Muslim. I appreciate the sentiment, but it's simply not true.

This was linked to on another thread recently. It's long, but worth reading:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

They're not doing it because they're muslim, they're doing it because they're savages.
It's like some men use quotes in the wrong way from the Bible as an excuse to rape their wives, and even so called Christian marital experts have advised this is ok, they aren't doing it because they're Christian they're doing it because they're scum. That's why other Christians would and do make laws to jail them. It's not following Christianity to rape your wife, it's just some scumbags twisting things to what they'd like it to be. Anybody can interpret things how they want, and it's not always good.

Islamic extremists are committing their crimes precisely because they are Muslim, not in spite of the fact I completely disagree with this. Oliver Roy said that what we are seeing is not the radicalisation of Islam but the Islamification of radicalism, he's right. Radicalisation is mainly a social problem. Many ISIS recruits and supporters have very limited Islamic knowledge. I read recently that one of the Bethnal Green school girls that went to Syria didn't even know how to pray, which I found interesting.

SprinklesandIceCream
As someone who has lived in Islamic countries, I can tell you there is no equality under Islam. Women's testimony is only worth half that of a man's in court, and a woman can only inherit half that of a male heir. Inequality is in-built into the religion. Islam seems okay in the UK because we are a secular democracy. In its natural habit, women have few rights.

For anyone interested, this is a list of all the approved translations of the Koran, in particular the verse that permits men to strike women. In none of the translations does the book refer to striking out of the home. It clearly says strike, scourge or beat them.

corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=4&verse=34

Muslim women who think otherwise don't know our religion or are being deliberately deceptive.

user1496662851 You are the one that is trying to be deliberately deceptive.

Muslims who feel so passionately that we in the west are wrong (specifically women, dressing, what we do) and do not allow their children to integrate with non Muslims

Of course Muslims should integrate but how many non-Muslims make an effort with Muslims? There is a lot of 'othering' that goes on. How many people would approach a new colleague wearing hijab and invite her to lunch? How many people would think, hang on, we always go to the pub, let's do something that Ayesha can join in with much better for once, rather than just getting a Coke.

A lot of people are happy for Muslims to be 'culturally Muslim' (i.e. have a party on Eid) but not to obey the actual tenets (no alcohol, no pork, no sex before marriage). In short, they want Muslims to be like them, before they will accept them as friends.

That's not integration. That's conformity.

Those tenets were just a few examples, of course

All religions have their extremists.... so as well as the Muslim ones we have:

www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/02/07/sean_duffy_asked_for_examples_of_white_extremist_terror_here_you_go_sean.html
www.nytimes.com/2017/05/26/opinion/sunday/it-was-forced-on-me-child-marriage-in-the-us.html?_r=0
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army
america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2015/2/myanmars-buddhist-terrorism-problem.html
news.vice.com/article/christian-and-muslims-are-facing-more-and-more-persecution-by-hindu-extremists-in-india
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/sikh-extremists-convicted-of-london-attack-that-nearly-killed-retired-indian-army-general-8740513.html
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokyo_subway_sarin_attack

There is even a page claiming a terrorist attack by Quaker extremists (and I speak as a Quaker) the-american-catholic.com/2011/01/24/quaker-terrorist-suicide-bomber-kills-31-at-moscow-airport/

StatelessPrincess
Don't just say I'm being deceptive. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I've provided you with a link to all the official translations of the Koran.

Here it is again: corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=4&verse=34

You have the original Arabic and the English versions to look at.

Please tell me where and how you believe it does not tell Muslim husbands that they can beat their wives.

If I have been deceptive about a woman's testimony being worth only half that of a man, or a woman only being able to inherit half that of a male heir, please correct me and provide sources.

I'm fed up of people trying to suggest that Islam is somehow an expression of feminism. It is the antithesis of everything good that feminism stands for.

Chloe84 I completely agree with you and as I've said before on MN I really feel that when a lot of non Muslims talk about about integration they actually mean assimilation. If we don't conform to a non Muslim idea of a non religious ''modern'' woman we are so often dismissed.