When I hear "we won't let them win" I now think, Hallo! They are winning!

[bruffian]

How the hell can we stop this?

Lua I don't think victims of terrorism and their families are winning anything.

Just as all Muslims are not responsible for the recent acts of terrorism so the kids in Manchester are not reasonable targets for attacks on the UK state. Or are they? I am puzzled at your thinking tbh.

The police enforce the law. If you want things to change then the law must be changed. I doubt anyone can be locked up for what they say. Or a large number of MN posters would be in jail - all those constantly being accused of racist comments. They say things others don't agree with so should be locked up??!?

I'm puzzled by Lua's comments too. Was that some vain attempt to justify all this somehow?? I am sure we are all well aware of the suffering experienced by the many people living in these countries.
And the debate for involvement will rage on I'm sure...but really???
This Abu chappy from the Jihadi next door said pretty much the same. With his cockney 'innit' and cheeky laugh. While stuffing chips down his gob watching execution videos.

Lua - in almost all the countries you mention, civilians are mostly being killed by other Muslims, be it ISIS, the Taliban, Al Qaeda etc. They are being killed by the same people that are kiling people here.

And don't you think it's strange that the Coptic Christians in Egypt, the Yazidis in Syria, the Hindus of Pakistan, the Buddhists of Afghanistan, the Jews of Yemen and Iraq have a right to want revenge also for the ethnic cleansing, murder and displacement of their people and culture by Islamists yet don't? All these peoples existed long before the Islamic conquests of their countries but we have not seen them radicalized or seeking revenge so far.

Jane Moore on Loose Women today said she had been talking to Col Richard Kemp and he said it wasn't a question of resources at all, but a lack of political will over the last 20 years from all political parties to tackle this, or as JM put it, they stuck their fingers in their ears and said la la la.

Saira Khan was also a panellist and she was very articulate about being brought up as a British Muslim in the UK. She is very angry about the inactivity by successive governments to tackle the extremists and said that political correctness was to blame. I hope that goes online somewhere because Muslims are accused of not speaking out, and she has done so.

I'm also sorry for the Muslims who now while also having the same fears regarding terrorist attacks, on top of that have to deal with edl type wankers as well

But we do need to stop tip toeing round the issue of extremists as shock ( not !) once again these attackers were known to our security services .

Of course we know that the majority of Muslims don't agree with this I would think that would be obvious ?!

however wr do have those with extreme views living here happily preaching there hate and that is wrong . I'm getting sick of hearing " it's just a couple of sick Individuals who do this " do people say that because they are scared to be called racist or is it easier to think that as it makes people feel less scared ??

People seem to assume everyone with radical views who hate the west and our values are willing to die for the cause , I seriously doubt that . they'll leave that to the mentally unstable mugs won't they . Doesn't stop them at worst recruiting , training and brainwashing these people and at "best" simply passing on this hate and negativity about the country they live in to others / the next generation and completely segregating themselfs off in society .

Yes it's a small minority of Muslims but it's a bigger minority than a few lone mentally unstable sickos

my thinking is that no one is winning, and that "winning" is relative to whom is judging the win. A good stable solution would be when not just us but most are equally safe.

We can find lots of examples of all kinds of people doing horrible things to all kinds of people. This has been going on forever, and sadly it will continue on. I think the solution has to be about finding something that is good for all sides. Look at what happens with israeli and palestinians. As long as there is a very opressed side, there will be anger and a person wiling to do barbaric things. As long as people want to win, there will be a problem with the ones that loose.

Anger, finger pointing and generalizations is the sure way to continue the process. Think about how does the recruiting happens. People that are happy, healthy, mentally stable, well educated would be much harder to recruit for such barbaric acts.

p.s. mothertruck - Iraq had a lot of freedom issues before Bush invaded, that is for sure. But it was a prosperous and rich country. It is a total disaster now. The west should take some responsability for the chaos that now spills over. This is in no way a justification for the terror attacks, but one needs to look at the origins of the current state of affairs and not repeat the same mistakes. And no, I don't think anyone should have the right to search for revenge.

Personally, I don't think it's as small a minority as we are led to believe.
The notion of living under sharia law in this country, appeals to far more than just those willing to blow themselves to smithereens.
My late mother predicted all this 25 years ago, and at the time we all laughed. Well blimey, who is laughing now.

I was saying this the other day actually. In any movement there are only a few in the 'soldier class'. Doesn't mean there aren't plenty behind them cheering them on.

The ideology behind these attacks needs to be made clear, the unacceptability of that ideology and it's propagation needs to be made clear and real action needs to be taken where it is being propagated using the existing laws that lack of will hasn't seen being fully utilised so far and if necessary, changes of law, can be made.

A starting point though is making clear islamist ideology is not ok, propagating it is not ok and any institution or group or individual caught doing so is breaking the law and will be dealt with. That has not been done so far. Those who protest and say this is not fair this is censorship etc will be making clear that they are proponents of this ideology and should have all public funding removed and be investigated. Those saying, yay, no problem and about time will be clearly identifying themselves as not part of the problem.

Lua, doctors, teachers and many 'academics' have been happily recruited to this mission...
Educated and non educated alike. The one thing they have in common, is some moronic slavery to their religion.

Another quick point - if being 'anti muslim' can be seen as racism and dealt with under race and hate laws then so too can being 'anti infidel/kuffir/non believer'. I want to see people being abused by these kind of Islamists recorded as hate crimes and racially motivated incidents. Where, like on the documentary, people are spewing hate against non muslims that needs to be recorded as hate crimes.

Everyone needs to be treated equally under the law.

The notion of living under sharia law in this country, appeals to far more than just those willing to blow themselves to smithereens.
Yes, helpful generalisations and spreading panic about all these secret Muslims who want to destroy out lives is just what is needed right now. It's not like the terrorists want to create division and in fighting so they can convince people that the west hate them, ensuring they have more recruits.
My late mother predicted all this 25 years ago, and at the time we all laughed. Well blimey, who is laughing now.

is some moronic slavery to their religion.
What a lovely condescending statement.

I'm sure such statements are very helpful in terms to uniting people against terrorists.

It's a good job the vast majority of people I meet don't come out with such inflammatory garbage. I think I'd despair.

I am sure this is controversial....but, is worth considering how many innocents have been killed in Iraq, Syria, Afganistan, Yemen, etc. I suspect many, many more than people killed in the UK by radicalized terrorists. Put yourselves in their shoes for a minute and remember most of the families that have lost innocent relatives are muslims
People were discussing this sensibly earlier in the thread.
Then the thread turned into the usual crap of 'we're silenced. It's not fair. You can't talk about extremism without being called racist/islamophobic. They want to shut our country down and have sharia law, they... they... but don't call me out on it because I'm just telling it like it is and if you challenge me then I'll us either as proof about how liberal we've bexome'

When really it's as simple as:

• discuss extremism calmly and rationally, fine
• start shouting crap that's inflammatory and/or inaccurate, not fine.

Sadly, the 'political correctness gone mad' brigade seem to think that there's no personal responsibility to not fan thr flames of intolerance.

She's not wrong though maisywell the first part , I can't really comment on someone's mum opinion

There will most definitely be more people who hold extreme views but are not prepared to blow themselfs / anyone else up. Of course there are .

You can say that and still believe 99 percent of Muslims are decent people who'd never hurt anyone .
But these people who have committed these acts didnt act completely alone in getting to the point of doing what they did

What people are getting at I think is that there is an issue with radicalisation it's not just 8-10 looneys in complete isolation who happen to be using Islam as an excuse

MaisyPops some of them are not the sharpest pencils in the drawer.

IfNot says: If you think about it Islam is a few thousand years younger than Christianity

Ifnot, Islam is not thousands of years younger than Christianity. Christianity came about in 1st Century CE and Islam developed in 7th Century CE. That's a period of around 600 years.

I am sure that the death and destruction in the Middle East is a huge hook to reel ordinary young Muslim guys in. Many would have family connections to these countries and may know some victims. I would imagine the natural disgust and anger felt at that is harnessed as step 1 of radicalising someone. Facts can be twisted and slanted step by step after that.
Its unrealistic to expect people not to have that fellow feeling.

There is an issue of radicalisation.
To suggest that lots of people secretly want sharia law is simply inflammatory.

There needs to be education, there needs to be a greater focus on targeting people at risk (Eg I have colleagues who have reported students in school for things that are minor but might mean they are susceptible to online content). There needs to be proper resourcing of specialists to deal with it.

I can think all of that without doing the "boo hoop people tell me I can't be mean about muslims" nonsense that's happened on this thread. To me, anyone saying 'I can't say anything without people calling it racist/islamophobic' probably is saying views that are either racist or islamophobic.
It's the text book "no offence but..." And what follows is offensive. E.g. no offense but you're looking like you've gained a bit of weight.
"I'm not being racists but..." usually comes before a racist or inflammatory statement.

Put it this way, I think more needs to be done on extremism (both islamist and EDL type). Nobody has ever called me racist or islamophobic, because I'm not. Sadly, people who complain at being challenged usually can't see that they ARE often being inflammatory.

Most importantly, though, blaming terror attacks on isolated loners who get radicalized because they can’t fit into regular society flagrantly sidesteps the role that community sympathy and insulation for extremist ideologies plays. It turns a blind eye to the fact that we are living through a full blown jihadist insurgency being fought in our own streets. ISIS did not radicalize the 6,000 European fighters who left their homes to join a group that was partly responsible for reintroducing sexual slavery to the modern world. No. Those thousands of angry young European born Muslims were already radicalized. ISIS merely plucked the low hanging fruit

Maajid Nawaz

Well then looks like I agree with you maisy
And regarding the edl "send them home " type morons aswell

Thanks clumsy. It's so true. The people who whine the most about 'not being allowed discuss' and 'political correctness gone mad' are usually the ones in my experience spouting racist, inflammatory nonsense.

People discussing the issue at hand in a way that is tolerant and respectful, somewhat unsurprisingly, don't feel they can't talk about it.

I think polls show something like 40% of muslims want sharia law - it's hardly secret or something that needs insuating.

The difference between 'ok' religious views and Islamist extremism is that hopefully most of that 40% want that to come about through free conversion to Islam whereas the Islamists feel justified to use violence as a means to achieve it.

theHoneybadger

There is already some marriage shariah law in the U.K. It helps Muslim men and women who have had an Islamic marriage to get an Islamic divorce.

So yes, it makes sense that Muslims will want to keep Islamic court for this purpose.

That does not mean they want the UK to be ruled by Shariah law. It's specific to Muslims.

Thank you Honeybadger. That's exactly it. How farcical is it, that just suggesting that this might be in any way true, is considered inflammatory. That anyone daring to decry the fact that political correctness and the freedoms bestowed by the west, have helped pave the way for extremism, is considered right wing and racist. Unbelievable. Yet the clumsys & Maisypops of this thread think it's ok to lower the tone to comments like 'not the sharpest pencils in the box' insults. Yes, that says it all really...suggestion...Give Corbyn a call and invite them all round for tea & cake. And keep on beating that unified drum, because as we can see, that's working a treat this far.

I never said anyone wasn't the sharpest tool in the box ??

Read my posts . I said I think there is a problem with extremism in this country ( That many won't talk about or admit to ) and that I was sick of these terrorist acts being explained as being the actions of a few isolated mentally unstable people who had only chosen Islam as a platform

However I can think this without insulting the rest of the Muslim population who don't think like that . And also reserve the same judgement for edl / bnp sorts who despite what they say really just want anyone who isn't white to fuck off .

Then the thread turned into the usual crap of 'we're silenced. It's not fair. You can't talk about extremism without being called racist/islamophobic.

Put it this way, I think more needs to be done on extremism (both islamist and EDL type). Nobody has ever called me racist or islamophobic, because I'm not. Sadly, people who complain at being challenged usually can't see that they ARE often being inflammatory.

I'm not sure if some if your comments are addressed to me Maisy and my post about the Archbishop of Canterbury, as your comments are very generalising whilst you are telling other posters not to generalise

Can you point out the particular comments you wish to argue with or object to, rather than just trying to slur everyone who disagrees with you? It might be more constructive.

And I have been called a racist many times. Mostly because I voted to leave the EU, sometimes if I am discussing other issues. I am not racist. If you really think that the fact that someone objects to being unfairly called a racist makes them a racist, well good luck with that.