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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

When I hear "we won't let them win" I now think, Hallo! They are winning!

506 replies

bruffian · 04/06/2017 07:37

How the hell can we stop this?

OP posts:
Sausagesandroses · 05/06/2017 21:31

What is behind the Saudis sponsoring wahabi Islam? Why on earth and who does it benefit? Trying to google it but have not got far yet...

sussexman · 05/06/2017 21:58

Look up salafi instead - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism ought to have come up of course

Zafodbeeblbrox10 · 05/06/2017 22:01

We the public just see the results of these acts, and the accompanying media coverage..we don't know enough to know exactly how they came about, and why. The waters are muddied. You could blame radicalisation, or foreign policy, lone nutters etc..but who really knows? I suspect most opt for the simple explanation.. the one given to us!

38cody · 05/06/2017 22:53

No Zafo
It's radicalisation.
Other elements feed the radicalisation but that's what it is, please don't tell us we don't understand and are media sponges.

IfNot · 05/06/2017 23:01

I think Islam across the world is going through the same stage Christianity went through around the time of the crusades. If you think about it Islam is a few thousand years younger than Christianity, so maybe it's something that happens in major religions at certain times.

In the last 40 years the movement has been towards conservatism/ extremism, which has gained momentum since the gulf war. Extremists are terrorising people in Kenya, Malaysia, so many places.
It's not just here, it's a global trend, and many many people are suffering.
I don't know what the answer is but I agree about faith schools, of any faith.
I believe all religion is a tool to control and oppress people, to different degrees, and faith schools should not be allowed to perpetuate alienation.
I have known some very moderate muslims. I have also been called a whore in the street by male teenage muslims, in areas where integration just doesn't happen. There is totally an acceptance in some communities of anti west anti liberal Islamism.
We need to have investment in real community work. Talking about banning mosques is not what the UK is about.

We can't tolerate moral relativism or be scared to talk about radicalisation, but we need to be working with mosques and schools and communities, and at the same time gathering Intel.
And ffs stop choking the public sector ie the police! We need funding for the police and lots of it.

CrossWordSalad · 05/06/2017 23:05

Someone mentioned Maajid Nawaz a page or two back. I agree he is talking a lot of sense about Islamism and Islamist terrorism.

This clip is very short and well worth a listen,

"Muslims Don’t Need To Apologise For Extremists, We Need To Stand Up To Them"

www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/iain-dale/muslims-dont-apologise-extremists-stand-up-them/?utm_source=t.co&utm_medium=referral

and here is an article he wrote in the Standard:

www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/maajid-nawaz-muslims-can-play-a-crucial-role-in-isolating-the-extremists-a3557146.html

Hana101 · 05/06/2017 23:15

I don't think this is a casebook of winnng or losing... I am a British Muslim 3rd generation born and raised and I can whole heartedly say that this scares the crap out of "us" as much as it does everyone else. Although now I have to be scared not only by some absolute bell end blowing himself up but also of nutters posting on the internet that they will "kill any dirty f**g Muslim p*i" they see".
I am fully integrated in British values and culture. i work, my kids go to a mixed school take part in all assemblies and learn about all faiths because I want them to not be ignorant and know what is out there in the world. The way I dress is plainly obvious that I am a Muslim (headscarf) but I don't wear a full face now an because personally I don't agree with it but I wouldn't want to deny anyone else the right to wear it.
I don't know of any extremists, the mosques that my family attend do not promote extremism and it's quite a conservative mosque.
I honestly don't know the solution for this problem that we have but tarring everyone with that same brush and getting mosques shut down is really not the answer.
People constantly say muslims should do more I personally don't see how much more we can do I've seen on the news today that one of these terrprist were reported to the terripsnt hotline twice- what more can we do? The Manchester attacker had been reported 5 times I saw in the news he was still able to get away with it.
My message to anyone who has these thoughts if you don't like this country hand ur passport back and go live in s country which is more suited to ur lifestyle choices. Apologies for the essay :)

mimishimmi · 05/06/2017 23:34

Hana - same has been to so many of us (eg read about the Irish). It's all black ops. They thought they had us 'in the bag' after WW2 and didn't count on their population collapsing underneath them in response to all the crap they do (ir holocausts etc) This is what this is all about... it's not really about you, it's about us. They're pissed with us.

Fbpn · 06/06/2017 00:05

I completely agree with LadyoftheEmpire.

We have shuffled around the issue for far too long. Why do we allow this to happen? We fund it, we are the 'beasts to be distroyed' on our own land!

Sadly there will always be an extremist group who want to attack democracy and destroy the privileges we have in the west.

Why? Because of their twisted view on religious doctrines written so long ago they can't even be proven to exist!

user1495484765 · 06/06/2017 00:49

Hana101 - only a fool would think that all Muslims are the same. We know that there is a worldwide problem with extremists, but they seem to be multiplying at an alarming rate.

Perhaps something positive will come out of the recent atrocities. There is a definite switch in mood, like we really have had enough now. We do need to come together, all of us. Our government (whoever that will be!) needs to throw as much resources at this problem, otherwise we are sunk. I kind of think it is too late already but we have to try. Saw something on the news that said May did agree to the 20k phase out of police numbers but that was at a time when crime was going down, and Labour agreed with the Tories then about this issue. But times have changed and they need replacing and fast and in greater numbers. All barriers to removing the people like the known attackers in London should be torn down. If you have someone blatantly appearing on a documentary called The Jihadists next door and unfurling an ISIS flag in a London park, plus being reported several times, why shouldn't he be interned? He was a known threat.

mumto2two · 06/06/2017 07:11

I agree User...but having woken up to read election debate coverage whereby our leaders are STILL harping on about protecting civil liberties..and not making knee jerk reactions to this, because our surveillance powers go far enough..I just think what the heck.
Until they truly understand the pain endured by those personally affected, they will continue to bang the same old tolerant drum.

Bobbydeniro69 · 06/06/2017 07:56

I think 'they' are winning to a certain extent.

Personally, being a northerner, I always feel safe - Manchester has changed that. Now my safety will be in be at the back of mind if I'm going to the shopping centre of a large public event.

We also were looking forward to an exciting day in London with my 4 year old, seeing the sights etc . That's been ruled out, even though the risk is tiny it still something we can eliminate from our lives.

derxa · 06/06/2017 08:10

I'm shocked noone in the police force took 'The Jihadis Next Door' TV documentary seriously. Why?

derxa · 06/06/2017 08:13

This issue shouldn't be party political or dependent on what party gets elected. It's too serious for that.

38cody · 06/06/2017 08:14

Bobbyseniro
Well yes then, they have beaten you if you are scared to even set foot in London!
Most of us will carry on with our plans with a little more vigilance but then I grew up in the 70's in London so this doesn't feel new and it doesn't feel unbeatable.

BeesOnTheWing · 06/06/2017 09:14

Manchester police did put out a statement saying the Manchester bomber HAD NOT been reported to them. There is some doubt about the claims.

Allegedly the guy in London had his passport taken away to stop him going to Syria. Imo he should have been allowed to choose to leave and then refused entry back. Anyone's with dual citizenship off to a war zone with an Isis flag in his backpack should be stripped of UK rights.

It's not fair on the law abiding majority.

mothertruck3r · 06/06/2017 09:25

They thought they had us 'in the bag' after WW2 and didn't count on their population collapsing underneath them in response to all the crap they do (ir holocausts etc) This is what this is all about... it's not really about you, it's about us. They're pissed with us.

mimishimmi - who are the "they" you are referring to?

mumto2two · 06/06/2017 09:41

Jihadi next door was a shocking reflection on just how stupidly tolerant we have been
What country in the world would allow such atrocious extreme anti societal behaviour, in full public view, and still give them money for sitting on their fat ass for doing nothing but preaching and waving their black flags about like a moronic game of twisters.
We've been far too ignorant for far too long

TheHoneyBadger · 06/06/2017 11:53

at least you don't have to bump into abu haleema from that documentary like i did just last week in tescos. he is a known jihadi preacher who has been housed doors away from a primary school in my home town. though it looks like i won't be bumping into him around here anymore as he was outed on social media, given police protection and is now apparently being relocated. presumably to another lovely 3 bedroom terraced house by a primary school fully paid for by the state.

that paragraph labels me as a right wing extremist somehow in many people's books i think. the fact i don't want a known jihadi linked to various terror attacks and to an organisation that has produced the majority of home grown islamic terrorists roaming free in my town associating with whoever he likes and being fully supported by public funds makes me extreme?

it is a bit of crazy world currently.

MumIsRunningAMarathon · 06/06/2017 11:56

honey that is ridiculous! Really worrying

BeesOnTheWing · 06/06/2017 12:12

Honey badger I hope things might be changing but mostly I fear they won't.

CrossWordSalad · 06/06/2017 12:49

Honey and Bees I do think things are starting to change.

Here are two clergymen talking about Islamist extremism. (I have posted these links on another thread, but I think it is worth putting them on this one)

I think there has been a level of denial and of silencing of people who try to talk about the problem going on.I think the first step is people being able to talk honestly and realistically about what is happening with out cries of racism and "Islamophobia" every time they try to. Once we can do this, I think things will start to change.

Here's the Archbishop of Canterbury:

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/archbishop-canterbury-justin-welby-london-attack-islam-twisted-misused-muslim-faith-a7772916.html

Faith leaders must take responsibility for countering the religious justification for atrocities committed in their name, the Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby, has said.

The Most Reverend Welby said throughout history religious scriptures have "been twisted and misused" by people to justify hates of violence and "We have got to say that if something happens within our own faith tradition we need to take responsibility for countering that".

He said politicians should not just say "this is nothing to do with Islam" and focus on the security of political aspects of it as it is also an ideological problem

And here is an Anglican priest, Rev’d Dr Gavin Ashenden.

archbishopcranmer.com/need-talk-jesus-mohammed-christianity-islam/

The Mayor of Greater Manchester Andy Burnham claimed in public that Salman Abedi, the man who slaughtered children in the Manchester bombing, was not a real Muslim:

“The message that I would want to get over – and this is how the vast majority of people feel – this man was a terrorist, not a Muslim.”

But how does Mr Burnham know that? It appeared that it simply was not true. Salman Abedi’s friends, who obviously knew him well, say that the truth was different. They describe him as a devout Muslim who had even memorised the Koran.

At the memorial service held after Khalid Masood had killed bystanders on Westminster Bridge, the Dean of Westminster Abbey Dr John Hall offered this reflection in his sermon:

“What happened a fortnight ago leaves us bewildered. What could possibly motivate a man to hire a car and take it from Birmingham to Brighton to London, and then drive it fast at people he had never met, couldn’t possibly know, against whom he had no personal grudge, no reason to hate them and then run at the gates of the Palace of Westminster to cause another death? It seems likely that we shall never know.”

But that wasn’t true. We did come to know – only days later. In fact, in his last WhatsApp message, sent just before he died, he had declared that he was waging jihad:

“..in revenge against Western military action in Muslim countries in the Middle East.”

Dr Hall never put the record straight.

Lua · 06/06/2017 13:00

I am sure this is controversial....but, is worth considering how many innocents have been killed in Iraq, Syria, Afganistan, Yemen, etc. I suspect many, many more than people killed in the UK by radicalized terrorists. Put yourselves in their shoes for a minute and remember most of the families that have lost innocent relatives are muslims. Do you think they feel like they are winning anything? Do you think they think westerners are fair people? Do you think if they judge us all bad because what out government does is wrong?

Now invert the situtation and see if your answers are the same. That should help a fair discussion.

mumto2two · 06/06/2017 13:01

Absolutely farcical honey. And there he is on camera, openly making a mockery of our generosity. When asked what he would do if they took his passport away, replied with something like, head to Syria, sit around and collect his JSA without having to look for work. And laughs.
It is sickening. Beyond the pale of what justice should ever allow.

mumto2two · 06/06/2017 13:13

I wish we could say things were changing crossword..but I'm not so sure. They are all very good at saying what we want them to hear. Look at all the undercover mosque reports that have been recorded. Spreading their vitriol of hate against non muslims, proclaiming women as inferior beings to be beaten if required. Proclaiming marriage pre-puberty as acceptable, because Muhammad thought it was ok back in the dark ages. And this is coming from senior respected figures within the faith?
At one mosque which was even applauded by Blair for its interfaith efforts! It's all a flipping joke. Their allegiance to the brotherhood and spread of Islam, goes beyond what they will ever openly express. So I'm sorry, I have developed a deep rooted sense of mistrust. And when they stand up denouncing terror in the way they do, denying any connection to the faith they both hold, I just think get lost. You share prayer and space with these vile people, and as pointed out on Question time last week, tea & biscuits. And all the while the anti-west message is still being spread.
Well I'm sorry, I for one have really heard enough.