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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

When I hear "we won't let them win" I now think, Hallo! They are winning!

506 replies

bruffian · 04/06/2017 07:37

How the hell can we stop this?

OP posts:
K00kie · 05/06/2017 18:32

It perhaps has a chance to end, or at least be contained, if the Islamic leaders openly condemn suicide bombings and other forms of terrorism as being against Islam. But not just by issuing occasionsl messages of disapproval after an atrocity. Imams need to start teaching tolerance in mosques, and call Islamist terrorism for all it is: the abuse of Islam and therefore blasphemy. And we all know how Islam treats blasphemers.

If potential terrorists were taught that after death they won't be awaited in paradise by 72 beautiful virgins but by eternal hell, they might reconsider. But that's the job for the Muslim community themselves. Just like the political troubles in the Middle East should be solved by the locals, without the arrogant Western 'help'.

Perhaps the first step towards it has been taken - in Pakistan of all places. One of todays headlines:
ISLAMABAD: Religious scholars from all schools of thought on Saturday issued a fatwa (religious decree) that declared suicide attacks, armed insurgency against a state and use of force in the name of imposing Shariah as ‘Haram’ or forbidden in Islam.

A glimmer of hope?

Summer888 · 05/06/2017 18:33

There are ways to stop this. The Qur'an actually says that they should kill all infidels - ie anyone who doesn't believe in their god, and who doesn't share their belief system and moral code should be killed. It is a warped extreme idea of religious interpretation, and unless extremists are eradicated from our shores then we will always have these problems. To reduce instances of this happening the government could close the mosques that promote extremism, ban the burka to promote integration, and ban the religious Islamic schools that only teach the Qur'an without teaching the full curriculum. To date they have not done so for fear of offending, or breaching human rights, but I think the government now need to take a stance and act. Religious extremism is NOT revenge for our foreign policies. Even gentle generous pacifist countries such as Sweden which has never participated in any war or aggressive action and have taken over a million immigrants and refugees in total, have had 2 terrorist attacks by Islamic extremists as they simply hate the western way of life : our freedom of thought and expression, and especially the equality of women and freedom of women to wear skimpy clothing which they abhor. I think if they can't integrate, then they should be made to leave and live in countries more in line with their beliefs such as Saudi Arabia. Our tolerance of extremism has to end, and protecting our values now has to come before political correctness and so called human rights (eg terrorists saying they should be allowed to stay in the UK so they can stay with their wives like Abu Hamza).

Wholovesorangesoda · 05/06/2017 18:33

I don't think 'they' are winning. I think it's scary and awful but it's not going to go on forever. That's not to say I know the answer, mind you...

woodhill · 05/06/2017 18:42

Exactly mum, the radicals hate us but are happy to have the benefits our society offer. Sickening.

MariafromMalmo · 05/06/2017 18:49

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Maireadplastic · 05/06/2017 18:52

K00kie- they do! Not only do Imams condemn these acts (there have been plenty doing so on the radio over the last few days) but the open their mosques to everyone in order to encourage understanding and communication. We were invited to a meal after sundown last night at our local mosque (it's Ramadan) so we went.

MariafromMalmo · 05/06/2017 18:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mumto2two · 05/06/2017 18:57

AmateurSwami..am well aware of the history books. Yet this is 2017.
Barbaric people who have ideologies based on a dark age theology, and are slave to its every dark age word, truly believe that to live the way we do, in our modern day society with all its relative freedom, is a sin worth punishing by death. How can anyone try and justify that??

zazasabore · 05/06/2017 18:58

Totally agree with Summer888

DaisyFlower161 · 05/06/2017 19:02

The point Adelino was making was not that the media should not report but how they report it!! I agree with Adelino the terrorists are after a predictable response and the most publicity they can get, and the press are providing this! Time the press started thinking about how to re-frame their response. They could start by focussing on how dumb someone has to be to turn themselves into cannon fodder for the sake of some gutless wonder who grooms other people to commit murder but tries to hide in the shadows and avoid any consequences for themselves!!

DaisyFlower161 · 05/06/2017 19:04

Time for them to start taking advice from a psychologist or similar to try to ensure that they respond in a way that the terrorists do not expect/do not want. They could also spend more time reminding everyone how disgusting IS are and how they treat anyone unlucky to come under their power including and especially muslims!!

DaisyFlower161 · 05/06/2017 19:07

Good for them!!

mumto2two · 05/06/2017 19:08

Agree Kookie. They claim it has nothing to do with them or their religion, yet it has EVERYTHING to do with their religion.
Under what modern day doctrine should women be openly oppressed, by 'choosing' as they often claim, to shroud themselves from public view. Like a chattel with no identity or voice. And all because they should not encourage the lusty male?? The onus is not put on the superior male to control his lust, but is put on the woman by way of some scripture written centuries ago.
Last night BBC interviewed some lady in a burqa, and she talked about integration within society. Well I am sorry, how can anyone who refuses to ever reveal their face to society, ever consider themselves to be integrated?! In some countries maybe, but no, not here.

missbloomsbury · 05/06/2017 19:13

Remember Spartacus? 'I am Spartacus!' 'No. I am Spartacus!' We are ALL in the front line. We all are fighting the enemy of radicalism. An army of citizens whose weapons are determination and cohesion. Live your life as you choose and not as these misguided brainwashed individuals would want. Keep showing how much we defy fear by rushing to help those in danger even when our own safety is threatened. It happened in London. It happened in Manchester. It happened in Westminster. Our freedom and compassion allows us to be these brave wonderful people. That's how we win.

thejetpack · 05/06/2017 19:14

I hear 'f off you t*s'. They are not winning and they never will.

Beetlebum101 · 05/06/2017 19:16

I believe the terrorists and sympathisers have seen children and innocent families killed and tortured in Syria and other regions for years and years and are deeply angered. These regions are deeply impoverished and war torn and have been ignored by the west for generations. I think this is the real root of the problem and these attacks will continue to happen until these communities have stability and a better quality of life. Happy people do not go around killing others. Not an excuse just trying to understand why the bloodshed continues.

Smudge100 · 05/06/2017 19:20

They are winning because their aggression invariably meets with appeasement. May had six years as Home Sec to do something about terrorism and did nothing. Corbyn is a self-confessed terrorist symathiser and is even weaker. Diane Abbott, his prospective Home Secretary, has described a defeat against the British State as a 'victory for us all' - just the sort of person you want in charge of security! Since the late eighties the police and social services made turned a blind eye to the grooming and rape of underage girls by Pakistani men. What more could the agents of the British state do to enable terrorism and the enslavement of non-muslim females? Oh, apart from shout down anyone who says, 'hey, wait a minute' and label them a racist/nazi/fascist, of couse. I have no children, so why would i care? For those of you who do have children, this might be the most important resistance movement you will ever be involved in.

chicaguapa · 05/06/2017 19:22

The Qur'an actually says that they should kill all infidels - ie anyone who doesn't believe in their god, and who doesn't share their belief system and moral code should be killed.

Do you have the chapter and verse of where this is in the Qur'an please?

GColdtimer · 05/06/2017 19:23

I just saw someone on the news talking about it tonight. He said there needs to be more projects at grassroots levels, identifying really early signs of extremism and having a debate with individuals on theological terms and humanitarian terms, talking them out of their extremism basically before its too late. He said there needs to be more communication between the agencies and more trust, more sharing of info. In addition they there needs to be a route whereby people who do raise concerns are taken seriously. In Manchester and London people from the muslim community had reported these men as potential extemists many times. Without the manpower and intelligence to follow up information like this, these things will continue to happen.

user1495484765 · 05/06/2017 19:24

We keep on going because we have no choice. Felt fearful commuting to London today, for the first time ever. I spoke to a colleague about the London attacks and she said, rather pompously, that the media have overblown the attack. She seriously did not feel it was that strange that people were going out on a Saturday night and ended up with their throats cut. I find the general acceptance that a barbaric act is our new normal so frightening, more so than the threat of an attack itself.

This attack was linked to Islam. Unpalatable as that fact is, it was. If someone is being stabbed and they say this is for Allah, then in their minds, it is. And who am I to disbelieve them? And no wishing away of this from non-Muslim apologists is going to change my mind about that. It is a small number of extremists, but unless we accept that fact, we will never solve this. Pragmatism is the way forward. Certain swathes of extremists hate the west and our way of life - they want Sharia law and see it as their job to achieve that, and non-believers are collateral damage.

They are happy to accept all the freedoms that this country affords them (mainly applies to the men, many of the women are subjugated), and what is even more vexing is that a lot of them are receiving benefits whilst disdaining us and our way of life at the same time.

I do wonder what it will take for some people to open their eyes about what is happening. ISIS have brainwashed a lot of people, but we have also been brainwashed into not speaking out about things we have been worrying about because we were fearful about being labelled as racists, even though Islam is not a race of course.

This is changing, and I hope these latest attack mark a sea change because we sure as hell cannot go on like we have been. I hope that the Teresa May Enough is Enough mantra is not just for General Election votes, and her record as Home Sec was not great, but still I dread Corbyn and Abbott getting into power. They are worse than apologists, they are sympathisers.

CrossWordSalad · 05/06/2017 19:25

No, I can't get my head around the notion that someone is horrified at seeing innocent children and innocent families killed and so blows up some innocent children and innocent families.

38cody · 05/06/2017 19:26

Who is the 'they' in this attack? The police haven't said who was responsible for the London attack yet. It's a bit early to jump to conclusions about isis isn't it.

Pathetic

Jayfee · 05/06/2017 19:26

Maajid Nawaaz on LBC speaks a lot of common sense. IS will not win.

Tannyfastic · 05/06/2017 19:30

“Kill the idolaters wherever you find them, and capture them, and blockade them, and watch for them at every lookout...” (Quran 9:5).

Tannyfastic · 05/06/2017 19:32

-Muslims are encouraged to be wholly occupied (Sura 2:273) with fighting for Allah's cause.

  • Allah will give "a far richer recompense to those who fight for him" (Sura 4:96).
  • Regarding infidels (unbelievers), they are the Muslim's "inveterate enemies" (Sura 4:101). Muslims are to "arrest them, besiege them and lie in ambush everywhere" (Sura 9:5) for them. They are to "seize them and put them to death wherever you find them, kill them wherever you find them, seek out the enemies of Islam relentlessly" (Sura 4:90). "Fight them until Islam reigns supreme" (Sura 2:193). "Cut off their heads, and cut off the tips of their fingers" (Sura 8:12).
  • If a Muslim does not go to war, Allah will kill him (Sura 9:39). He is to be told, "the heat of war is fierce, but more fierce is the heat of Hell-fire" (Sura 9:81).
  • A Muslim must "fight for the cause of Allah with the devotion due to him" (Sura 22:78)
  • Muslims must make war on the infidels (unbelievers) who live around them (Sura 9:123).
  • Muslims are to be "ruthless to unbelievers" (Sura 48:29).
  • A Muslim should "enjoy the good things" he has gained by fighting (Sura 8:69).
  • A Muslim can kill any person he wishes if it be a "just cause" (Sura 6:152).
  • Allah loves those who "fight for his cause" (Sura 61:3).
Anyone who fights against Allah or renounces Islam in favor of another religion shall be "put to death or crucified or have their hands and feet cut off alternative sides" (Sura 5:34).
  • Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him. Sahih Al-Bukhari (9:57)
  • Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush. (Koran 9:5)
  • Take him and fetter him and expose him to hell fire. (Koran 69:30-37)
  • I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them. (Koran 8:12)
  • They should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides. (Koran 5:33)
  • Know that paradise is under the shades of swords. Sahih al-Bukhari Vol 4
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