"UK home to 23,000 Jihadis"

[user666999]

This is the title from a Times article today. Bloody hell. This is a shockingly high number. I find this really scary. There really needs to be some major plan rather than just more waffle from this useless Government. I just don't see how this genie can be put back in the bottle and I think things will only get worse.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/huge-scale-of-terror-threat-revealed-uk-home-to-23-000-jihadists-3zvn58mhq

Ultra right wing nationalist commits terrorist act in the USA.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40070319

Kills 2 people.

We do not have a problem with Christians because they do not take the Old Testament literally.

So those points are entirely irrelevant.

We cannot allow one more person be allowed to be murdered by a muslim extremist

Can we allow any more MPs to be murdered by white nationalists?

Maybe we should lock up white nationalists just in case?

I think what people are asking is for the sources of these figures to publicly identify the security/surveillance processes in how these people are traced/identified. Because that will really help us all, won't it

Oh and Lean I think Hitler was utterly the most vile monster in history. But the jews were not murdering people, not beheading people, not throwing homosexuals off buildings, not chopping people's hands off, not tearing people apart with nail bombs. Don't fucking compare me to Hitler!!!

gypsie

So what do you suggest happens to these 23,000 people?

What solution have you got?

"British citizens CAN be stripped of their citizenship."

That's not quite right.

Dual nationals can have their British citizenship revoked, and people can be deported at the end of a prison sentence (or returned under reciprocal arangements to serve their sentences in the country if their other nationality).

But citizenship cannot be removed from a person if by doing that the person becomes stateless (last time UK did this was during WW2, and we've signed UN treaties since then).

So people in Britain who hold only British nationality ar very much our issue.

What about the ones without a 'Muslim sounding name'?

You do realise various members of the Muslim community DID report this bomber for extremist beliefs. Most intelligence comes from the Muslim community.

When you talk about not giving them rights you do realise that would mean your rights are erouded too? What would stop someone reporting you as an extremist, would it be fine to take your rights away until you could be proven innocent?

God, people talk about Corbyn being dangerous then you people start talking like Stalin! Taking citizens rights away without trial. So dangerous.

All those people who are concerned with this number.

The security services have the names of 23,000 people.

So what should they do with it? Have you got a solution?

2 sides of the same coin. Both easily radicalised. Both wanting respect, power, to be part of something bigger.

I agree but at the moment it is not right wing white extremists committing the majority of the terrorists attacks in the UK. If it was the other way around, would you be ok with people constantly saying "but what about the Jihadis?" to try and obscure and deflect the real culprits? Do you think that would be helpful or just whataboutery? Surely it is better to deal with the actual threat so that we don't create an army of white right wing supremacists who feed on such atrocities?

oscillationss they're fine, but not the sikhs or Hindus with Muslim sounding names.

Surely it is better to deal with the actual threat so that we don't create an army of white right wing supremacists who feed on such atrocities

So you're in charge. You've got this list of people.
What do you do?

Leanback thanks for clarifying. Makes perfect sense

It's so difficult to be level headed about this isn't ? Quoting the Koran, the Bible and Hitler don't actually help much.
I think we must accept though that some members of our immigrant communities are just as racist (and at the moment even more murderous) as the white nationalists are.

Fucking hell, it's really easy. Make work pay.

Too many 'jihadis' are people working for fuck all when they are clever and hardworking, in one of the riches nations ever in the history of the world, but are still not paying for food clothes and shelter let alone able to have a family or girlfriend, no wonder they are so fucking resentful, a d easy to radicalise. Make work pay, so conformity and decency is rewarded. At the moment conformity and decency means you have to.live in overcrowded houses with not enough to eat, so getting food from the mosque and resenting every layer of british society.

The other week I was reading an article about a woman who was on her way back from holiday, I think in turkey, and she saw two young men on the flight who she thought were acting suspiciously so she reported it and was then branded a racist in national press because they apparently weren't suspicious. How can you see it, report it if that's going to happen?! it would sure as heck put me off.

So you're in charge. You've got this list of people.
What do you do?

I have no idea. That is why I said in my original post that I don't think we can put the genie back in its bottle.

But one suggestion is to stop the Saudi/Wahhabi influence on so many mosques and preachers. Perhaps give funding to Ahmadi Imams and mosques to spread their interpretation of the religion/Sufism?

I have no idea

Well at least you've not suggested jailing them all without trial.

Is it that hard to investigate 23k people? I believe in ID cards, at least everyone would be listed somewhere, how many of these people are illegals?

The evil side of me thinks they should be rounded up and held somewhere but I know that's all sorts of wrong...who knows what solution there is but the world at the moment is a scary ass place and I fear for the future

Here's the thing with saying everyone who wants to discuss this in some way is a "ukipper" or racist - it just isn't on.

Of course people suggesting this is the fault of the entire Muslim population is vile and troubling. I am a Catholic from Ulster, as you say not all of us are IRA any more than all protestants are UVF. But there came a time in our society where we looked internally to stop it somehow. We didn't take responsibility for what the IRA did, it wasn't our fault however they were part of our wider community and needed to be stopped. Families stood together and said no more to meeting in homes, no more back doors left open, no more recruiting sons.

ISIS are a different kettle of fish, in that they don't want to discuss, they don't seem to have an outcome in mind (like the IRA and a united Ireland), the just want to obliterate. And they are here, in this country killing people.

Why can't there be a sensible discussion about how to stop them? About the communities terrorists tend to surround themselves with and about the places they are taught their warped versions of what is normally a very peaceful religion? Why are they being taught it? Why are they believing it? What is their schooling like? Why are they demoralised enough in society to become radicalised?
Many people reported this man and he still went on to commit this crime, this also MUST be discussed. It also must be discussed why other terrorists are able to exist within a community, recruiting others without also being reported.

There needs to be a discussion without racism but there also needs to be a discussion which does not get shut down at the first hurdle because people start shouting racism purely for people stating the person who committed the crime on Monday evening is of a certain religion.

Finding this middle ground for a discussion is going to be hard because no doubt it WILL get taken over at the start by loud mouth BNP and EDL types but that doesn't mean a sensible discussion still doesn't need to take place. BNP and EDL racist bastards are they few in our community, just as jihadists are the few in the Muslim community, so let's let the sensible people talk and find some solutions.

Yup not like we've had any terrorist attacks due to Christian beliefs or ideologies.

Fwiw his Imman (forgive me if I've misspelt that) had apparently reported the terrorist scumbag to the authorities previously. Even his mother had raised concerns. The Muslim community around him did all the right things.

Of course there will be further attacks. It's nothing short of a miracle that none had been successful in the UK since 2005 anyway.

HOWEVER, that 23000 will include all those whose names have come up in investigations, even erroneously (there was a thread the other day from a poster who had a call from social services after police had identified her daughter in connection with something - turned out to be police error and a girl with a similar name: this happens in counter-terror also, unsurprisingly, given the very small pool of common names etc)

There's also those who are overt sympathisers (but wouldn't do it themselves) known to the police, those with broad sympathy who've come to police notice for other things, and those who would like to carry out an attack and actively pursue it.

I've seen various estimates that the latter (in Europe, not just in the UK) are somewhere between 1% and 3% of the total figure of those known.

So in this instance, of the 23k. HOWEVER, it doesn't end there. In order to get as far as carrying out an attack, you don't just need someone with a motive, but also with a) the means (whittles down the pool even further) and b) the opportunity (ditto)

HOWEVER, even though there's a tiny proportion who fulfil these criteria, the number of potential attackers gets even smaller - because of informing, surveillance, police work etc etc So 23k is a scare-mongering figure with little real meaning except when used to create moral panic.

All that said, the terrorists only have to be lucky once to succeed - security services have to be lucky every time.

Blaming this - or 7/7, or 9/11, or any other terror attacks on any government is naive at best, and ignorant politicking at worst.