To think UKIP have just saved themselves from extinction?

[Killdora]

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/40039616

Let's face it, after brexit they were going the way of the dodo.

By throwing themselves into the often politely ignored issues around community integration and extremism I think they will be stealing a big chunk of the Tory vote again.

Especially the removal of passports from anyone leaving the country to fight for ISIS.

If that had been in place earlier then the Manchester murderer wouldn't have been able to enter the country.

There is a saying "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience"

You are quite right Foxy.

(By the way, for future info - 'lose' only has one L in it).

So you really think anyone going abroad to fight for ISIS is going to write that down on official documents are their reason for leaving the country?!

The trouble with Salafism is that it comes in different flavours. There are people who are hardline conservative Muslim who are pacifists. You can't simply say that because someone has hardline beliefs they are a danger, any more than you can say that anyone who is pro-life is about to walk into an abortion clinic and start killing the staff.

Of course anyone who is openly going around saying they fully intend to mount a jihadist attack should be detained. But Salafism has a provision within it whereby it is OK for adherents to pretend to be otherwise than they are for the sake of preparing an attack, i.e. they are free to lie about their intentions.

It is worth bearing in mind that one motivating factor for this attack seems to have been a race hate crime against one of the friends of the bomber. This absolutely doesn't excuse what he did. But it does point to the role of hatred and violence in breeding further hatred and violence. That goes at a personal level, as much as a geopolitical international level (the outrageously stupid foreign policy our government has pursued over Tory AND Labour governments of the last 20 years is partly to blame).

😂
Lol
In my haste to be a pendant in twat I didn't proof read my post!!!

Lose has one O 😳

Ffs - pedantic

(I should lay off the attempts at smug twattery 😳)

To illustrate what nonsense it is how do we feel about the following statements....

-Eddie Izzard is Yemeni
-Joanna Lumley is Indian.
-Cliff Richard is also Indian.
-Richard Dawkins is Kenyan.

That's an utterly bogus comparison and well you know it. He was born in Britain, held a British passport and lived in Britain his entire life. With the exception of Eddie Izzard, all of the above were born when those countries were part of the British empire and were born British citizens.

Not only was Salman Abedi Libyan by ancestral heritage, but he was Libyan in his religion, his culture, his moral norms, his friends, his concerns, his actions.

What the fuck does this even mean? How can someone have Lybian actions? And how do you know so much about him all of a sudden, with privileged access to how this idiot thought and felt?

The people who look down and hate western culture and freedoms instead of accepting it whilst still retaining their own culture, as the vast majority of muslims in this country do

This one? Yes sorry it is a bit confusing.

It was a continauation of the thought above it. I.e

The people that I am concerned about are the ones who look down on western culture and freedoms.

Instead of accepting our culture whilst still retaining their own, like the majority of muslims in this country do.

It is worth bearing in mind that one motivating factor for this attack seems to have been a race hate crime against one of the friends of the bomber. This absolutely doesn't excuse what he did. But it does point to the role of hatred and violence in breeding further hatred and violence

I personally can't really see that as any reason to do what he did.

I have been racially abused with my children on the street. At no point did I consider blowong up any people who shared the race of my assailant.

Killdora - well, not everyone reacts to things in the same way, as the fact that people are disagreeing with you on this thread proves.

The thing is with UKIP voters, is while I respect their view, and while I don't automatically assume they are all bigots or racists, I've yet to be able to have - in real life or on MN - a sensible debate with one of their voters which makes me think that they actually do understand all the points they make or that they are actually terribly intelligent. I really want one of them to prove me wrong.

I don't think that it'll have a major impact on the overall result. UKIP will undoubtably get more votes now, but they're just as likely to come from people that would have voted labour otherwise, not just conservatives.

Maybe they don't feel they have to prove anything to you ShatnersWig - I mean, who are you?

I have been racially abused with my children on the street. At no point did I consider blowong up any people who shared the race of my assailant

That's awful for you.

However the daily grind of being treated as sub-human because of your ethnicity makes it bloody easy to see how radicalisation can take place. I worked for a charity working with disenfranchised young people - mostly Muslim - to prevent crime by providing diversionary activities. There wasn't a day went by when 7,8,9 of them were abused. It's easier to see how a weaker character can be targeted

The more UKIP voters there are the more the Tory vote is split.

The problem people have with UKIP is that is the 'respectable' face of fascism. Putting fascism into the mainstream and normalising its ideals is dangerous.

Starting off with things like "we shouldn't let people who have gone off to fight IS back in" . Well, you would be hard pressed to find someone who thinks it is a great idea to let people go off to fight for IS and come back to the UK and continue on a racicalised path. So, on face value, the statement is fair enough, right?

But then, you have to explore it more fully.

How do you know who has been to fight IS? You don't. So you have to make educated guesses, so you end up confiscating the passports of people who went to Iraq to see their grandmother or whatever. And it is very time consuming trying to work out people's motives and track them when they are in IS areas.

Also, what are they meant to do with their passport confiscated? Probably go back to IS and become more radicalised and just reenter the UK on fake/stolen passports. Plus with the aided advantage that we have successfully turned some innocent people against the UK.

So we decide to ban travel to IS locations. Fab. Except, well, that doesn't really work because how do we enforce that Exit visas? That doesn't work because we can't control what people do when they get to other countries

So, how about just refusing travel to people who just look a bit Muslim? That would work?

Except, those Muslims are tricky people - they have found ways to leave and reenter the UK (e..g speedboat).

[side issue - this bloody fake/stolen passport problem. What we really need to do is not let anyone in unless they have their DNA registered. So we need to collect the DNA of everyone living in the UK.]

So, now we need to take it another step further? Maybe we shoudl jsut lock up all the Muslims? And also non Muslims who are a threat to the UK's culture like Romanians, Bulgarians etc.

Fuck, we have quite a lot of people in jail now. Conditions are pretty bad. What we really need is a way to get rid of them and reduce numbers?

However the daily grind of being treated as sub-human because of your ethnicity makes it bloody easy to see how radicalisation can take place

No it really doesn't, not for me.

I have been spit at, called 'Nigger' and felt pretty diesnfranchised throughout my whole youth.

I could never have hurt anyone. Killed children. The notion is impossible.

There is something already wrong with these men. There must be.

boysofmelody -
"That's an utterly bogus comparison and well you know it. He was born in Britain, held a British passport and lived in Britain his entire life. With the exception of Eddie Izzard, all of the above were born when those countries were part of the British empire and were born British citizens."

If I (English) move to Japan with my English husband and have kids there, are my kids Japanese? Are they as Japanese as, you know, actual Japanese people?

Unless you are being completely disingenuous your answer would be no, they would not be Japanese. Japanese nationals yes, Japanese people no.

So my question would be, does your willingness to accept other peoples unique identity only extend to non-Brits?

The more UKIP voters there are the more the Tory vote is split.

Which is a shame.

On Daily Politics today they had a couple of people on (from security think tanks).

They both said that the Tory manifesto was far more robust & promising wrt intended measures for extremism & security than the others.

"...there is some detail in the Tory one which demonstrates a certain level of thought and focus on this, but if we look at the Lib Dem & the Labour one we can see that they're only really talking about surveillance powers and prevent, without engaging with the bigger issues..."

I strongly urge people to do reading about the circumstances that lead to the ride of Nazism in German after WWI.

He didn't just come to power with the manifesto of killing Jews. It starts much, much more gently and slowly and there are a lot of parallels with the atmosphere in the UK at the moment.

Also, the rise and fall of Fascism in the UK in the 30s is pretty interesting. I haven;t fully appreciated that section of the UKs history.

depts.washington.edu/chid/intersections_Autumn_2010/Bret_Rubin_The_Death_of_British_Fascism.pdf

"If he is a British national and "not allowed back", where would he have gone?"

Maybe you should educate yourself? The bomber travelled many times to Libya then on to Syria. This was known to the authorities.

I have never voted UKIP, I vote lIb dem, but I agree that if someone who has been known to the security services and he decided to go on a 'holiday' to Syria, he can bloody well stay there!

I will also be pleased if some people vote UKIP because it will stop the Tories getting too big a majority, votes meant for the Torys will go to UKIP. If TM gets an overwhelming majority the NHS, Education and the UK in general will be Fucked!

The more UKIP voters there are the more the Tory vote is split.
It isn't as simple as UKIP only taking votes from the Conservatives though. They will appeal to people who vote Labour too and every party needs to look at why that happens. Why do people believe in the nastiness peddled by UKIP?

Great! I really hope UKIP get some votes from the hard of thinking.
The more votes they take from the tories the better.

If I (English) move to Japan with my English husband and have kids there, are my kids Japanese? Are they as Japanese as, you know, actual Japanese people?

*Unless you are being completely disingenuous your answer would be no, they would not be Japanese. Japanese nationals yes, Japanese people no.

So my question would be, does your willingness to accept other peoples unique identity only extend to non-Brits?

My answer to you, would be that I don't. If you and your spouse moved to Japan and had children they were born in Japan, held Japanese citizenship, lived their entire Japan and were educated in Japan, yes I would make them Japanese.

Why wouldn't they be Japanese?

Br the way , I 'm pretty sure it's nearly impossible to strip somebody of their citizenship. Has it ever been done?

Maybe you should educate yourself? The bomber travelled many times to Libya then on to Syria. This was known to the authorities.
I think you need to understand that as a British Citizen he has a right of entry into the UK. He could be arrested as soon as he is on British soil and his passport can be confiscated. We can't forcibly deport him to another country without their consent.

I haven't read the whole thread, so I'm sorry if this has been discussed but I was reading an article yesterday that was saying that taking people's passport should away can cause real problems because instead of them just buggaring off and joining the fight in Syria they are forced to stay here and are encouraged to perform Jihad here instead. Do you not think if it was as simple as taking their passports away we would have done that by now.