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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not know how to end this bloody difficult situation?

222 replies

TickingTimeBombx3 · 24/05/2017 23:13

Been meaning to write this post for some time now but it really hurts me to think of it and there's no easy solution to this. I have to make a decision about what to do and would like to know what people's advice would be. To cut a long story short DH and I met about 15 years ago and he chased after me for some time before we finally got together. Our different religious denominations has always been a sore point mainly due to family/tradition and what was expected of us actually, rather than our own beliefs as persons. I am more religious than he is but nevertheless we both thought we could rise above it and work through it. Wedding happened by having two separate services at the two different churches but there was some tension between our families at the time. Then the first child came and within days of her birth DH and I were arguing about how she cannot be baptised at my church it has to be his church as this is how he will retain the respect of his family/community. He said I should know when I married him this was the "done thing" and he also stated that could be a point that leads to divorce. I was very upset with him about this but didn't want to contemplate a divorce when we just had a baby. I could see that neither did he, he just said a lot of hurtful things as a reaction to the pressure he felt. I was broken. I really did want my DC to be baptised and never expected that it would come to this. After a lot of arguing without coming to a solution that would be acceptable to both of us he suggested that we shouldn't baptise her and stopped wanting to discuss it further. I was so sick and tired that I decided to keep quiet about this issue and work at getting the relationship back on track. I then did a terrible thing as I had my DC baptised at my church without DH knowing. I thought I would tell DH down the line when I had time to think if it and cleared my head.

Fast forward 5 years and we now have a lovely family, a stable relationship and another DC2 together who is a baby. I still have not told him the truth about DC1's baptism and not a day goes by without thinking of how he might react and how this could all brake our family/ happiness. I absolutely love our family and never wanted to put our happiness at risk. Now I would like nothing more than to baptise DC2 at my church but it would mean the same happening again as DH has reiterated he would not consent to having his children baptized. I know I made my own bed, but he also has never considered if I was happy with his decision not to baptise the DC and never tried to solve the problem with any of the solutions I proposed. When do you think I should tell him? I am so sad that I am faced with this awful situation and feel stupid that I didn't make sure we agreed on this issue before we got married.

OP posts:
willitbe · 27/05/2017 10:51

For a child baptised outside the Orthodox church, wishing to enter the Orthodox church:

"One of the big questions I receive from inquirers is on whether they're former baptism will suffice or will they need to be baptized when coming into the Church.

Without getting into the heated debates, let me say that this is an area of some contention in Orthodoxy. You will find some that claim everyone has to be baptized. In other places, they won't let you be baptized if you have a former baptism that meets their requirements. The bottom line is that what will be required depends upon the parish in which you chose to enter Orthodoxy through."

Taken from www.orthodoxconvert.info/Q-A.php?c=Piety-How%20To%20Become%20Orthodox

For a child baptised outside the Catholic church, wanting to enter the Catholic church:

"Will I be baptised again in the Catholic Church?

The Catholic Church respects the Baptism of anyone who was baptised with flowing water in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Baptism is the sacrament of our rebirth in Christ and our immersion into his saving death and resurrection and therefore cannot be repeated. Once we have been claimed by Christ in Baptism, we are forever marked as sons and daughters of God."

Taken from www.parra.catholic.org.au/becoming-a-catholic/adults-and-children--rcia-/i-am-already-baptised--how-do-i-become-catholic-.aspx

Why not wait for your second child?

Orthodox view:

"Why infant Baptism ?

Holy Baptism is the first of seven Sacraments in the Orthodox Christian Church. Together with the Sacrament of Holy Chrism it joins the candidate to the Mystical Body of Christ, the Church. Some people argue that the only valid baptism is that of an adult who believes in Christ first. They argue that to baptise a helpless infant only a few weeks old who is unable to believe is meaningless. So why baptise a baby when it doesn't know yet what is happening? Why not wait for the baby to grow and believe in Christ and ask for baptism? If we were to follow this line of reasoning, we wouldn’t inoculate the baby against diphtheria until he grows up and asks for it! But we know better. Baptising infants before they know what is going on is an expression of God's great love for us. It shows that God loves us and accepts us before we can ever know and love Him. It shows that we are wanted and loved by God from the very moment of our birth. Nothing shows the nature of God's grace more than infant baptism. The Orthodox Church does not belittle personal faith in an adult who seeks baptism, but instead insists that the whole emphasis of baptism is not an what the baby does or the parents or the godparents, but on what God does. The fact that we are Christians is not due to any act on our part; it is due to the act of God in Christ through the Holy Spirit. Of course Baptism demands a personal response on the part of the baptised child when it reaches the age of reason. The child must accept what God did for him or her in Baptism. Baptism is not a divine pass that will get us into Heaven automatically. It must be followed by a personal awareness or awakening to the many gifts of God's love bestowed upon us through this great sacrament.

Taken from www.orthodoxchristian.info/pages/Baptism.htm

Another good description of the Orthodox view and history of how it developed away from the Catholic standpoint, theologically. www.antiochian.org/content/infant-baptism-what-church-believes

Catholic view:

"Why are children baptized?

Children receive baptism primarily to remove original sin, but can serve as a great family tradition in which to inculturate one’s child into the faith of the family."

Taken from www.aboutcatholics.com/beliefs/a-guide-to-catholic-baptism/

From the Catechism of the catholic church:
"The Baptism of infants

1250 Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called.50 The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.51

1251 Christian parents will recognize that this practice also accords with their role as nurturers of the life that God has entrusted to them.52

1252 The practice of infant Baptism is an immemorial tradition of the Church. There is explicit testimony to this practice from the second century on, and it is quite possible that, from the beginning of the apostolic preaching, when whole "households" received baptism, infants may also have been baptized.53

1273 Incorporated into the Church by Baptism, the faithful have received the sacramental character that consecrates them for Christian religious worship.84 The baptismal seal enables and commits Christians to serve God by a vital participation in the holy liturgy of the Church and to exercise their baptismal priesthood by the witness of holy lives and practical charity.85

Taken from www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm The "Incorporated into the Church by Baptism" is significant, in that being baptised as a Catholic, you automatically become Catholic!

This is far too long already so I will not go into the views on marriage in the two different churches. But OP which church did you get married in? as you say both, but this is not actually possible, as you can only legally get married in one and have a blessing in the other....!!!!

chatty1 · 27/05/2017 10:53

I really feel for you. All these years you have been feeling guilty when you shouldn't have. Some people posting here that you went behind his back, deceiving him. I see the other way around. You married him and had 2 religious ceremonies, therefore you agreed that both religions were acceptable. Or at least you thought your religion was accepted and you never hid the fact that you were more religious than he was. With such precedent I don't see any problem in you taking your children to be baptized and him to his church. There is more to it than religion here and it is the fact that your husband became nasty to you when you just had a baby and saw you more vulnerable and he threatened you with divorce because he saw the opportunity to have the upper hand. Unbelievable!! Of course his solution was that none of you then have the children baptised, since he is not that bothered about religion still a win-win for him. Just anything to not have your feelings counted and end of discussion so he proves to be the man. I'll be furious if i was you, please stop feeling guilty, be stronger and turn things around. You can maybe seek advice from that organization that other posters have talked about. And I'll confront him with mediation, he seems like a very difficult person, nice no doubt when he gets his way but can easily turn against you again in an unpleasant way. You do what your conscience dictate but you are not the deceiver but the deceived. Good luck

pollymere · 27/05/2017 11:17

You can baptize your baby yourself, it doesn't have to be in a church which might make you feel better. That way the child is baptized in the sight of God but could be ignored should your child then decide to be more formally baptized in a denomination of their choosing. Your DH seems to have gone from only in my church to no baptism which could only be possible if he Baptist and believes in adult baptism. DC1 won't be able to do that if he's already baptized so you might have to say something at some point.

Instasista · 27/05/2017 11:19

I wouldn't tell him but I wouldn't do it again

Italiangreyhound · 27/05/2017 11:47

Chatty speaks excellent sense.

Jux · 27/05/2017 12:29

If you are very religious, is your God and your relationship with him the most important thing? More important than any other relationship? If that's the case, and your religion wants your children to be baptised into its Church, then you have to do that.

Same goes for dh, of course. If he's not really practising, then he's being hugely hypocritical in his stance of my-way-or-the-highway, isn't he? Do as I say, not as I do. In the Catholic Church of my youth - and amongst the Jesuits I know, this would be unacceptable and they would posit that dh has already broken his vows to you, by taking this stand.

I know of quite a few very religiously-observant people who have quietly had their children baptised. To them, the baptism was a necessity.

thenovice · 27/05/2017 15:30

This may be a dumb idea, and as I haven't read the whole thread perhaps this has been covered already, but as you both want your DC2 to be baptised but in different churches you could suggest one of these options to him:
a) have it done in both churches (we had ours both baptised in my home church and in our local church so all could come without lots of travel faff) or
b) a quiet and very sincere DIY baptism at home with just you and the family, with the 2 of you saying words you both agree and write before. I thing God would be fine about it, if what you are doing is saying thank you to him for your DC and promising to bring DC up in "the knowledge and love of God". You could actually suggest doing both DCs at once. I am sure God will have enough blessing to spare to pour down on both your lovely children.
All the best Flowers

Ineke · 27/05/2017 17:30

Your post has been troubling me all day and just by chance I pick up an old newspaper and read this. " We have a right to offend and a duty to be offended. In a free society you cannot force people into a set of values on the basis of a faith they don't subscribe to" Tim Farron

Italiangreyhound · 27/05/2017 17:31

For those who are saying religion should not be a priority. This is fine if you are not religious.

What I would say OP is that Jesus said to 're thief on the cross next to him (something like) "Today you will be with me in paradise."

Having said this I would (in an ideal world) want to do the same for both kids unless my understanding of this changed.

NoFucksImAQueen · 27/05/2017 20:25

As someone who was brought up on a religion and then chose my own path anyway let me just say that your child/children being baptised won't make a blind bit of difference to how they turn out. They will grow up and chose their own paths regardless. All this arguing and bickering, it's just wasted energy

MumsTheWordYouKnow · 28/05/2017 08:11

It's very sad that religion leads to these kinds of disputes and worries and seems very opposite to what religion is supposed to be; accepting, kind and forgiving. It seems quite the reverse the way people interpret it.

wheresthel1ght · 28/05/2017 08:38

Op, if he had do e this being your back how would you feel if you found out by accident?

I think you have been very stupid and in my books it is no different to taking on huge debt without agreement or having an affair. You have betrayed his trust.

You need to just tell him, fall on your sword so to speak but do not be surprised if it ends your marriage.

wheresthel1ght · 28/05/2017 08:38

Op, if he had do e this being your back how would you feel if you found out by accident?

I think you have been very stupid and in my books it is no different to taking on huge debt without agreement or having an affair. You have betrayed his trust.

You need to just tell him, fall on your sword so to speak but do not be surprised if it ends your marriage.

willitbe · 28/05/2017 08:42

TickingTimeBombx3 - did you have Godparents for your older child? Who other than the priest knows that your child was baptised?

Have you thought further about telling your husband, and trying to get your marriage on a better footing?

Italiangreyhound · 28/05/2017 12:32

willitbe I am not sure if you intended your "Things for you to think about" to be so one-sided. They seem to imply the OP was at fault. Was that your intention?

"Are you sorry for hurting him?"

I would say, is he sorry for threatening to divorce you OP when you had just had a baby? I am not saying two wrongs make a right I am saying his behaviour led to yours.

Re "Do you still feel that you would "do anything" to get your second child baptised into your own church rather than wait till they can decide?"

The difficulty here is that members of churches which believe in infant baptism often feel it is their duty/responsibility to get their child baptized, it is not about the child deciding.

We are members of such a church (Church of England) but many in the C of E choose to dedicate their children (like in the Baptist church) so the child can decide when older for themselves. This is a different understanding of baptism. Luckily, despite having different views my husband and I managed to agree on what to do.

I feel very sorry for the OP because if she had felt able to, I hope, she could have found a compromise with her dh. This would have led to her not having to carry this guilt around for so long.

It is not fair on her!

As her dh doesn't believe in the significance of her churches's baptism and wasn't bothered about having the child baptized into his church, he is not the victim here, she is, IMHO!

"What are you willing to do, in order to try to regain your husbands trust?"

I feel the OP's dh has lost her trust too, and needs to regain this. I would suggest some sort of mediation around this issue, done by a person not connected to either church.

"How will you prove to your husband that you will not do the same with your second child?"

I do not see that the OP needs to do this at all. If the marriage survives they could come to an agreement they are happy about. If not, she can do as she pleases.

As the husband's main objection was his loss of status in not being able to force his wife to toe the line, and as no one knows about the baptism in his family, I do not really see how he has lost out!

"You will probably need some marriage counseling, how about this being with the Catholic service providers?????? How would you feel about this???"

What a dreadful suggestion! Someone to brow beat the OP into submission!

I would suggest that you do not have a Roman Catholic or Orthodox counselor but instead someone who understands the issues but will not take sides.

"You will have to at some point tell your oldest child what you have done, you might find that they are happy you did it, or they too might be not happy that you got them baptized! You are in a difficult position, the sooner you get this dealt with the better."

The thing is all babies who are baptized as infants will find their parents in the position of telling them, ... you were baptized on XYZ day. So what, that is a parents choice. The child can choose for it to mean nothing for them, or they can embrace it. But it is a parents' chocie.

cultfiction2 · 28/05/2017 12:43

By the terms of your own faith you have committed a terrible sin. If religion is this important to you then you have done something very wrong indeed, and within the terms of your religion you can therefore expect to be punished. You have betrayed your husband, and dragged your children in to an issue which will demand that they take sides and perhaps even lie to their father.

However, I suspect religion is just an excuse, and there is probably something very wrong in your relationship which you are using religion to express. One clue is the mention that he pursued you, suggesting an ambivalence on your part. Things might seem good on the surface but this betrayal of your husband points to a quite significant and unaddressed issue at the core of your relationship. Look at that before things really cannot be repaired.

Also, it is really interesting that you have not been able , with the counsel of both of your religious leaders to reach a compromise. This too points to something unaddressed at the core of your relationship which has nothing to do with faith, as many mixed faith couples manage to raise children in a thoughtful, mixed faith environment in which their religious integrity is maintained.

Consider couple therapy, if you want honesty or be prepared to live as a liar.

Italiangreyhound · 28/05/2017 12:49

thenovice did you get your child baptized twice in the same branch of the church? A very odd practice, there is only one baptism, I am guessing both vicars/priests/ministers did not know about the other one.

i can see the sense of having it done in two different denominations, although I do not feel it is necessary and may still be against the church rules, but at least with two different church denominations it could be seen as sign of keeping the peace.

wheresthel1ght let's be fair here, shall we...

"I think you have been very stupid and in my books"

We could also say the husband has been very stupid too, marrying someone he knows to be religious and then denying her the right to baptize their child. He did this with the threat of divorce to a woman who had just had a child. I call that quite abusive on his part.

"...it is no different to taking on huge debt without agreement or having an affair." It is very different to that .

"You have betrayed his trust." Only if you think that being 'forced' into a position on threat of divorce by one's spouse is a 'trust' situation. I do not agree it is.

"You need to just tell him, fall on your sword so to speak but do not be surprised if it ends your marriage." That's pretty loaded advice. Fall on her sword! What crap. If she decides to tell him I hope she will ask his forgiveness if he feels he wishes to give it, but I hope he will realise that he needs her forgiveness too, for driving her into this difficult position!

Footle · 28/05/2017 14:26

cultfiction , are you actually god? Perhaps you should speak more gently to someone in OP's situation.

Italiangreyhound · 28/05/2017 14:53

cultfiction your post is an offensive pile of shit. You have 0 interest in helping and just want to sit in judgment, fortunately you are not God, and your views are of little interest! The OP is not a liar, she has been pushed into a corner by her husband and acted (in her view) in the best interest of her child.

OP you can report things that do not follow mumsnet talk guidelines.

scottishdiem · 28/05/2017 15:16

I honestly dont know how you can solve this so not much help. You have lied to your husband and his family. The first one I can maybe understand but you want to do the same thing with the second. Why are you having children with a man you know you have to lie to in order to continue with your beliefs?

I note that italiangreyhound is all for blaming your husband for this but the idea of not having them baptised until they are old enough to decide was surely a better idea than lying to everyone?

Italiangreyhound · 28/05/2017 15:24

scottishdiem I think the OP made a mistake by going behind his back but I think he created this situation.

How did he not create it?

Misstic · 28/05/2017 18:46

The OP is responsible for her actions. She chose to do what she did. NO one made her do it. It is ludicrous to imply that her husband made her do it.

Italiangreyhound · 28/05/2017 20:08

It is ludicrous to imply her husband is in the right.

Italiangreyhound · 28/05/2017 20:10

Of course she chose to do it but he severely limited her choices by threatening to divorce her!

willitbe · 28/05/2017 20:12

Italiangreyhound - I too am in a marriage where we are of two different Christian denomonations, both very active in our own churches when we met, and as I was writing a degree thesis at the time on inter-church marriage, I had looked at the theological issues carefully prior to marriage. It meant that my husband and I went on two different marriage preparation courses, one specifically on inter-faith marriage. This meant that we were in the fortunate position of being able to have an open discussion about infant baptism in the different denominations prior to having children.

Obviously the OP and her dh did not have this discussion prior to children, and they both panicked !!!!! I think that your blaming the OP's husband is wrong, they were both at fault. But the OP went a step further and organised a secret baptism for their child.

You ask how did he not create the issue, it was both of them that created the issue, as both of them are at fault for not having communication prior to the child arriving. Whether his manner was threatening, I would question, as he offered the solution to leave it to the child to decide, this in the situation of inter-church marriage, is a valid solution, as are several other options. The having the child baptised in secret is not a real solution, it was a get out of having to come to a compromise via discussion.

In my situation, my husband compromised with our first child, and we did agree to wait and let our child decide, but family pressure was continually put on him about getting our child baptised, that when we had our second child, my husband and I talked about it further, and in order to relieve some of the pressure his family were putting on him, he agreed to have our second child baptised in the church I am in, the church we were married in.

The OP was not forced by her husband to baptise their child in secret, it was a lack of communication and she decided to act unilaterally outside of their marriage agreement if you like. He may or may not have threatened at the time to instigate divorce if she baptised the child in her church. If family pressure was anything like the situation my husband had to endure, I can understand why the husband may have talked about it in this way, that it could put the marriage under so much pressure that it could break. He was wrong to do that sort of threat after his wife had just had a baby, and will need to apologise for this, but they were both wrong to have left it til crunch point of the baby being born before discussing it.

I think that you have a very dim view of church counseling if you think that going to a counseling of a different denomination is going to brow-beat you into a particular way. I have found that it is helpful to go to the church that is not your own, in order to understand why my husband has a particular view on issues, and sometimes help my husband see that marriage vows are important.

The catholic church says that in an inter-faith marriage, decisions regarding children have to be made "within the sanctity of marriage" so that the catholic church does not make baptising of children above the marriage vows in importance. Baptising of the children is not supposed to end up with breaking the marriage. Hence the availability in both churches to allow for children to remain unbaptised as infants, although not an ideal position, but putting the marriage at risk is considered a worse situation. This came about in the Catholic church at Vatican 2 due to the problems that at the time, there was no choice for Catholics, they had to get their children baptised into the Catholic church as infants. It lead to huge issues in marriages.

"I feel very sorry for the OP because if she had felt able to, I hope, she could have found a compromise with her dh." - This is the issue, she was not able to discuss it prior to having the baby and then not able to reach a compromise after having the baby, the OP chose to do her own thing rather than discussing it and finding a compromise. There was not theological reason for her to do what she did, when she did it, she did not apparently seek advice from her spiritual leaders at the time regarding it, but went ahead without her husbands consent, and is contemplating doing the same again. This is very much a breach of trust. If she had sort help from her church and arranged marriage counseling from her own church leaders at the time, they may or may not have persuaded her and her husband to get baptism done at that time. But the OP does not say it was on advice of her church, it was just because she was unable to compromise at that time, and she felt that the only way to get her child baptised was to do it in secret.

The marriage still needs to be worked on. Hence why I am asking her to think about what she has done, so she can have honest answers to give to her husband when he asks "why"! Can she honestly say that the only reason she got her child baptised in secret was because he threatened divorce! No it was also because she was unwilling to compromise her beliefs. The church would have told her to put her marriage first, try to sort out the issues, but she did not do this as she just wanted to get the child baptised regardless. That is how I read it when she says "Now I would like nothing more than to baptise DC2 at my church but it would mean the same happening again as DH has reiterated he would not consent to having his children baptized." In other words he has again said he is not happy having their child baptised in the Orthodox church and would prefer to wait to let the child decide later in life. Yet the OP (not under immediate threat of divorce this time as far as I can see) is thinking about getting their second child secretly baptised, rather than seeking marriage counseling from anywhere, to deal with this very difficult issue. At the very least, both of them need to go to both churches and get advice about their marriage as well as the issue of baptism.

Her husband is not in the right, neither is she, they both need to deal with it, preferably together.

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