To not know how to end this bloody difficult situation?

[TickingTimeBombx3]

Been meaning to write this post for some time now but it really hurts me to think of it and there's no easy solution to this. I have to make a decision about what to do and would like to know what people's advice would be. To cut a long story short DH and I met about 15 years ago and he chased after me for some time before we finally got together. Our different religious denominations has always been a sore point mainly due to family/tradition and what was expected of us actually, rather than our own beliefs as persons. I am more religious than he is but nevertheless we both thought we could rise above it and work through it. Wedding happened by having two separate services at the two different churches but there was some tension between our families at the time. Then the first child came and within days of her birth DH and I were arguing about how she cannot be baptised at my church it has to be his church as this is how he will retain the respect of his family/community. He said I should know when I married him this was the "done thing" and he also stated that could be a point that leads to divorce. I was very upset with him about this but didn't want to contemplate a divorce when we just had a baby. I could see that neither did he, he just said a lot of hurtful things as a reaction to the pressure he felt. I was broken. I really did want my DC to be baptised and never expected that it would come to this. After a lot of arguing without coming to a solution that would be acceptable to both of us he suggested that we shouldn't baptise her and stopped wanting to discuss it further. I was so sick and tired that I decided to keep quiet about this issue and work at getting the relationship back on track. I then did a terrible thing as I had my DC baptised at my church without DH knowing. I thought I would tell DH down the line when I had time to think if it and cleared my head.

Fast forward 5 years and we now have a lovely family, a stable relationship and another DC2 together who is a baby. I still have not told him the truth about DC1's baptism and not a day goes by without thinking of how he might react and how this could all brake our family/ happiness. I absolutely love our family and never wanted to put our happiness at risk. Now I would like nothing more than to baptise DC2 at my church but it would mean the same happening again as DH has reiterated he would not consent to having his children baptized. I know I made my own bed, but he also has never considered if I was happy with his decision not to baptise the DC and never tried to solve the problem with any of the solutions I proposed. When do you think I should tell him? I am so sad that I am faced with this awful situation and feel stupid that I didn't make sure we agreed on this issue before we got married.

[Italiangreyhound]

it is good you were so well prepared and clearly it was the right thing to be so well prepared.

May I ask which religions/denominations you are? Feel free not to say!

I think you blaming the OP is wrong! Her dp went one step further and threatened divorce.

[Italiangreyhound]

willitbe sorry denomination s not religions. Plus you and your Dh are both religious, the *OP's husband just appears to be concerned what his family will think!

I am still reading through your comments!

[singme]

OP are you Coptic Orthodox by any chance?

Good luck with sorting this situation out. Sorry I don't have any wiser words but plenty of others have

[Italiangreyhound]

The child deciding is an Anabaptist belief not RC or orthodox, as you know.

"Outside the marriage agreement." There was no agreement.

[Oakmaiden]

"GaelicSiog
The trouble with that wombling is baptism is an unrepeatable sacrament. You can't do it more than once."

Is this actually true? Because I have done a lot of family history research, and I have several ancestors who had a private baptism by the vicar (presumably because they were not expected to survive) and then another baptism a few weeks later...

[Italiangreyhound]

"He may or may not have threatened at the time to instigate divorce if she baptised the child in her church." well yuo may or may not believe what the OP says but she did say "He said I should know when I married him this was the "done thing" and he also stated that could be a point that leads to divorce."

"I think that you have a very dim view of church counseling if you think that going to a counseling of a different denomination is going to brow-beat you into a particular way."

Not at all, I am very happy to think church counselors could be professional but ultimately if I was going to debate with my RC husband about baptism I would not go to an RC counselor.

"I have found that it is helpful to go to the church that is not your own, in order to understand why my husband has a particular view on issues, and sometimes help my husband see that marriage vows are important." That may well be so, would the husband also go to an Orthodox counselor? If so, I would consider it too. (If I were the OP.)

And of course the OP is free to ignore me!

"...the OP chose to do her own thing..." This is a hilarious assessment. I doubt that baptizing her baby is anything she just came up with of her own ideas! She was following her faith and family tradition. and she was doing it in the face of her husband making it impossible for her to discuss it with her comfortably at all.

"There was not theological reason for her to do what she did..." I cannot understand your reasoning here at all, surely you know that this is all about theology and what people believe.

But i do agree "If she had sort help from her church and arranged marriage counseling from her own church leaders at the time, they may or may not have persuaded her and her husband to get baptism done at that time."

"they both need to deal with it, preferably together." I would agree, but I still feel the decision to tell her husband is up to her.

I don't see her husband here an innocent victim at all. He has put his own and his wider family feelings over that of his wife, and we all know on mumsnet that that is a big no no.

[scottishdiem]

Italiangreyhound

They both created it. They both wanted the opposite thing. Both wanted baptised in their own faith. He moved position. She didnt and went behind his back.

At least he didnt lie. He threatened the divorce. Not the nicest thing to do. But that was a threat tied to having his child baptised in his church. He then moved away from both the divorce and the baptism. Neither had won or both had lost the debate at that point. Depending on your point of view. Now the husband has lost and he doesnt even know it.

The OP, if she was committed to her faith rather than a shared position with her husband, should have been brave enough to commit to the same compromise or do the divorce thing. Instead she lied and went behind his back.

[Italiangreyhound]

Oakmaiden What denomination?

Well you are only meant to have one baptism. At least in my church that is the case.

[Italiangreyhound]

scottishdiem Personally IMHO they both contributed to it.

They both met and married knowing they were different denominations and one would imagine knowing that this could lead to problems.

The areas where they both made mistakes, however, differ. And by shutting down the debate on this I think the OP's dh created the environment where this could happen, knowing that his wife was more religious then he was.

"They both wanted the opposite thing. Both wanted baptised in their own faith."

However, if their wedding was anything to go by the OP could well have concluded they would go for two baptisms for any child born to them. Since their wedding had been celebrated (somehow) in both churches.

"He moved position." in that he said no baptism at all, she did not agree to it, he suggested divorce may come from this, which must have effectively shut down all debate.

"She didn't and went behind his back." Well, she did what she believed and he made it impossible for her to discuss it with him.

What is the harm to him? He doesn't believe in her faith so cannot realistically think it will affect their child, can he? His main concern was not his daughter or his wife, it was himself and his family and 'saving face'. Now (presumably) his family think he has not had the child baptized in any faith, so how has that saved face?

"At least he didnt lie. He threatened the divorce. Not the nicest thing to do."

Not sure how you define 'not the nicest thing to do'. I think threatening divorce to a woman you have promised to love and who has just had your baby is pretty low, actually. Pretty manipulative. He could have stood up to his family.

"The OP, if she was committed to her faith rather than a shared position with her husband, should have been brave enough to commit to the same compromise or do the divorce thing. Instead she lied and went behind his back."

I hate this repeated 'lie' mention. Did she promise not to do it? As far as I can work out she did not.

Personally, in her shoes, I hope I would have told him I'd get our child baptized in my church, and said he could join or not, and he could get the child baptized in his church, or maybe I would have just kept talking until he agreed! But I've not been in the position of a person where the person I love most in the world, whose baby I've just had, is shutting down discussion with the possibility of divorce!

But this is all ancient history. The OP did what she did, and I think she did it because she felt her dh gave her no choice.

I'm not saying it was right to go behind her dh's back but she has my sympathy and I think her husband behaved badly, at a time she was vulnerable, not because he truly believed it but because of his extended family and his own sense of his own importance.

OP can you check with any Roman Catholic Church to see if he has had your dd baptized behind your back? Are there lists available? Would I be the family church near his family, if he had done this?

[Italiangreyhound]

Anyway, I had better shut up now and wish you all the best OP.

[TickingTimeBombx3]

Dear posters thanks for all opinions which are respected. I can see how this looks to a third party perhaps but really what Italian has said really hits the spot. I am not here to get anyone's acceptance. I have even had friends and family judge me severely and this whole thing really has not been easy for me nor my family who have felt very isolated at times.

For the poster that stated this is not "bloody difficult" you are totally right that in the grand scheme of life this is a very first world problem. I don't think this is a competition either, I was just seeking some views on an issue that has played on my mind for long enough.


Just to clear things up it was not me but another poster that stated that our denominations "hate each other". This is not the case for us. We did attend counseling before getting married at both churches. We also both signed a prenuptial statement at the Orthodox Church that stated we both agree the children will be baptised orthodox. DH told me at the time he didn't want to do it but that was the only way the orthodox ceremony could go ahead, so did it to please me. My understanding though at the time was that our future D.C. would be baptised in both churches actually and I would be happy to have done that. Whether the 2 baptisms are according to the churches rules was a secondary issue to me as I knew after having investigated in depth that this was something that could happen if DH and I wished for it. We were at a stage when we didn't even know if we are ever going to be blessed with D.C. so arguing about the details of having 2 baptisms didn't seem relevant. I was trusting our track record that just as we found a solution to the marriage we would find a solution to the baptism when we came to cross that bridge. The certain thing is that we never discussed not having our D.C. baptised at all. I honestly wouldn't mind if I found out our DC are secretly baptised in DHs church. But I know he wouldn't have done because he doesn't believe in this. I embrace his church and community, it is part of who he is.

Funnily enough he jokingly has said to me a couple of times in the past that "you might have baptised our DC in secret by now for all I know" and when the older DC was asking to buy her a necklace with a cross he told her to ask her grandmother for this (i.e. my mum) as "she likely has something like this ready for you.... " So he has certainly thought about what I did as a likely scenario but never asked me directly.

I have suggested couples counseling at the time of these arguments but he categorically said no. I also had full knowledge that what I did could cost me my marriage but something inside me froze when he said it could lead us to divorce anyway. I do not want my DC to grow up thinking I was a weak mother who followed a tradition that has a woman's opinion/beliefs and wants at such a low position. Just to reiterate the women in his denomination/community (i.e. DH's sister) would be totally expected to follow their husband's denomination in marriage and baptism as if being female means we should just follow the DH. I have a real problem with this concept and did not want to bring up my DC thinking this is acceptable and that they are expected to follow the same rules in years to come. I also made DH aware of my objection to this concept who has showed little understanding.

[Italiangreyhound]

TickingTimeBombx3 well this certainly puts a new spin on it! So he agreed to this!

I'd say follow your heart. Have your new child baptized but either do it by telling your dh first, realizing it may cost you your marriage, or simply go ahead as before. He gave you written permission.

Looks like he was the one doing the lying now, doesn't it!

I'm sorry he has put you through this. You say you are now happy together, use your own judgment, maybe some joint religious counselling could help you both.

All the best.

[Lisa9819]

If you are a Christian then respecting your husband comes before where you baptize your child. I would not try having DC 2 baptized at your church again... sounds as if it will create unneccessary family tension. Since you guys come from such different backgrounds, have you thought of finding a church that's neutral.. like a new church (not yours or his) that you can agree on to go together? Then you can have both kids baptized there when/if they decide to when they're a little older. Not only that but then you can be in agreement together as a family instead of going to separate places to worship.

[Italiangreyhound]

What about a husband respecting his wife Lisa? (Ephesians 5:21)

[Lisa9819]

Italian, I agree the respect is to be equally both ways. It probably sounded more blunt than intended.. if he were on here posting similar, I would have written the same thing about respecting his wife. What I meant by that is fighting to have your child baptized at a specific church doesn't seem worth it, but I have been through similar with my DH... as he comes from a very patriarchal/ Pentecostal background and I come from pretty much the opposite. That is why I asked if they considered finding a church together that was not his nor hers.

[Italiangreyhound]

Lisa the finding a church together was a good idea. But did you read the update where the OP said he had signed to give permission for the kids to be batpized in her church?

Our children are not baptized, DH and I agreed and they will choose for themselves when older. But I do sometimes feel sad we did not do that for them. If I really felt it was necessary, my husband would not be able to stop me! But I don't see it as necessary for children to be baptized.

I think religion is weird for people outside of it, because they maybe cannot understand how strongly these views are held. I am now of a more liberal Anglican persuasion and actually not holding 'views' too strongly has been very liberating! But I do still understand and remember what it feels like to hold a specific view and feel very strongly about it.

[willitbe]

TickingTimeBombx3 - thank you for clarifying, this does make a huge difference to the situation. You do need to follow through with getting your child baptised as orthodox, but doing it behind your husbands back is not the way to go.

Your husband needs two things very strongly pointed out to him:

Firstly: that the following the husbands religion was thrown out by Vatican 2.

Prior to this shortly after the reformation, it was the norm amongst many Protestant / Catholic marriages, that the boys be raised in the Father's religion, and the girls in the mothers religion, and the Catholic Church believed that the protestant children would be damned to hell! Later the Catholic church became a bit more dogmatic, demanding that all the children be raised Catholic, as was demanded prior to the marriage taking place in the Catholic church, as as you had to do, the Catholic church demanded that the person getting married had to sign saying that they would raise the children as Catholic. Vatican 2 stopped this totally, saying that the raising of the children as Catholic was to be promised only by the Catholic partner, and only to be fulfilled within the sanctity of marriage, ie that the children were only to be raised as Catholic, if both partners agreed to it.

Secondly: Your husband signed to say that he agreed to bring up his children as Orthodox Christians, he needs to fulfil that promise, as best he can.

This does not stop him teaching his children about his own denomination if he so chooses. He should fully support having his children baptised in the Orthodox church, as ultimately this does not stop the children becoming Catholic at a later stage. The Orthodox baptism is fully recognised as a valid baptism in the Catholic church.

The Catholic church would be very much against the double baptism that has been are suggested. The Orthodox church would not support getting children baptised in a different church as is also being suggested.

So this does come down to the fact that your husband signed saying that he would bring up any children as Orthodox, and he needs to fulfil this by the very least getting them baptised in the Orthodox church, regardless of if he wants to also have them brought up understanding both denominations.

However as you husband is living in a pre-vatican 2 attitude, I would suggest you need to find a Catholic priest to put him right. I would suggest contacting the local priest yourself, and having a discussion around this with him, if you find he is supportive, then ask him to talk with you and your husband. If you don't find him supportive, then find a priest locally who is supportive. I used to say that the younger priests were more open minded, but this is not always the case, but you will find a priest who understands the new teaching in vatican 2, and will be able to support you in getting your husband to do the right thing.

[willitbe]

OP You do both need to ask for forgiveness from each other. If your husband does not understand his part in this, you (and a Catholic priest!) could gently point out the relevant parts of the Catechism of the Catholic church:

Mixed marriages and disparity of cult
1633 In many countries the situation of a mixed marriage (marriage between a Catholic and a baptized non-Catholic) often arises. It requires particular attention on the part of couples and their pastors. A case of marriage with disparity of cult (between a Catholic and a nonbaptized person) requires even greater circumspection.

1634 Difference of confession between the spouses does not constitute an insurmountable obstacle for marriage, when they succeed in placing in common what they have received from their respective communities, and learn from each other the way in which each lives in fidelity to Christ. But the difficulties of mixed marriages must not be underestimated. They arise from the fact that the separation of Christians has not yet been overcome. the spouses risk experiencing the tragedy of Christian disunity even in the heart of their own home. Disparity of cult can further aggravate these difficulties. Differences about faith and the very notion of marriage, but also different religious mentalities, can become sources of tension in marriage, especially as regards the education of children. the temptation to religious indifference can then arise.

1635 According to the law in force in the Latin Church, a mixed marriage needs for liceity the express permission of ecclesiastical authority. In case of disparity of cult an express dispensation from this impediment is required for the validity of the marriage. This permission or dispensation presupposes that both parties know and do not exclude the essential ends and properties of marriage and the obligations assumed by the Catholic party concerning the baptism and education of the children in the Catholic Church.

1636 Through ecumenical dialogue Christian communities in many regions have been able to put into effect a common pastoral practice for mixed marriages. Its task is to help such couples live out their particular situation in the light of faith, overcome the tensions between the couple's obligations to each other and towards their ecclesial communities, and encourage the flowering of what is common to them in faith and respect for what separates them.

1126 Likewise, since the sacraments express and develop the communion of faith in the Church, the lex orandi is one of the essential criteria of the dialogue that seeks to restore the unity of Christians.

Baptism of infants
1250 Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called. The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.

[Lisa9819]

Italian- I read it after I posted. I was only responding to initial post at first. Yes I totally understand what that is like. Half of our family still holds very strong conservative beliefs and belong to a Pentecostal church/community. It was a crappy thing for him to do and it sounds he was most likely more concerned with appeasing his family than he was his wife. Although that may have changed since that was years ago. My DH was like that for years. His family put a great deal of pressure on him/us to have things done their way... holidays, church involvement, politics... you name it. And I think it was easier to have me upset with him than them because of the level of guilt they'd put on him. It was the determining factor of getting away from it all and has been the best thing for us and our kids. But then again I am much more liberal when it comes to religion and politics so it wasn't for me. Sometimes you don't see how the persons religion/family is going to affect your relationship until you're already married... sometimes there I see just no way of knowing until you're actually in the position already like many other situations that crop up when married.

[Italiangreyhound]

Lisa glad you got free. I'be been, and still am, white charismatic but without the heavy dogma that Pentecostal churches can bring as well.I'be had someone bellow in my face for me to receive the gift of tongues, not received it, and felt veal! Now I try and find the most spiritual and human pathway through my religion, it is a journey and a destination. If you know what I mean. And I do feel if you trample a loss of people on the journey it is wrong, because the journey counts as well as the destination.

[Lisa9819]

Yes.. always people praying down to you for not having received the spiritual gifts they claim to have. Because of course you couldn't be filled with the spirit if you're not speaking in tongues (sarcasm)!! The dogma in many denominations is not for me. Much more into non denomination these days myself. But I have a hard time trusting any absolutist that claim to have every answer to God/life/after life... there is so much we will not know until our own time.

[Gromit78]

I would be interested to know exactly which church denominations you both belong to? All the church denominations have different views on what baptism is about and having a good understanding of what his church thinks would really help the situation.

I would strongly suggest you talk to your minister about the situation. They will have an understanding of your husband's church and it's perspective on baptism.

In the Catholic church you can't get baptised more than once. However, in most denominations you can. Hundreds of people flock to get baptised in the River Jordan like Christ did even though they were baptised as babies.

Why did you secretly baptise your baby? Was it to make a promise to raise them in your faith? My DH is Methodist and I am Catholic. I had my daughter baptised in a Catholic church and I have often taken her to mass. However, now she is 8 years old it is for her to decide to receive Holy Communion or not. At some point the baptism of a baby doesn't really matter much as when they get older it's up to them to make choices about their own faith and relationship with God.

I wish you all the best on this one, but don't let external members of the family interfere or let this issue of religion destroy your marriage. That's the last thing Jesus or your children would want.