Why is MN so transphobic?

[user1494271474]

I really don't understand it but it makes me sad. Trans people just want to get on with their lives and are at more risk of being harmed or murdered than anyone else.

This OP is a perfect example of why transactivism is homophobic.

Adults telling a little boy that he must be a girl because he likes dolls and because he might grow up gay? That's homophobic, sexist child abuse.

And it's still happening today. Only now the parents who diagnose their toddlers as trans get told how cool & right-on they are for putting them on a path that leads to dangerous chemo drugs, infertility and irreversible surgery.

I struggled with my gender growing up in was brought up in a male only household dad and brother. I liked computer games I liked sports climbing trees when my dad wouldn't let me go out I said I wish I was a boy so I could go out like my brother it was gender stereotyping that made me feel like that I still like some masculine hobbies now as an adult but I'm happy I am female because that is what I am . I worry some kids are being pushed into the trans label when they aren't truly transgender.

Fifthed. Cheers Datun.

And Yellowox, this again is why the world would be so much better off if we could get rid of "gender" altogether.

Is sixthed a word? my spellcheck doesn't like it!!

Thank you, that's v kind!

Although I'm a realist, I honestly cannot, and do not, subscribe to the thought that people who come on and shout bigot and walk off are anti-feminist, anti-woman idiots.

They can't be. This is mumsnet!

I can feel their indignation coming off in waves. They're outraged. They think we're awful, one eyed, raging zealots.

We're not. This is mumsnet.

But not everyone has the time to read about feminism. Not everyone feels the need to read about feminism. Without wishing to sound patronising, feminists are further ahead in the game.

Because feminists saw this coming. They purposely go out of their way to drill down into every aspect. Take in all the information, look at all the statistics, the science.

Then they go online. And talk. To transactivists. And with all the tools in their toolbox, they can counter it. All of it.

To me, it does not stand up to scrutiny. Gender dysphoria is irrefutable. But the trans ideology is full of holes, doublespeak and misogyny.

It needs a massive deconstruction. A penis is not a female organ. You can't change sex.

Women have been oppressed historically on the basis of their genitals and reproductive capacity.

If you suddenly separate the word woman from that oppression and their need for female centred rights, you dilute it at best and erase it at worst.

You lose your voice.

This shouldn't be happening on the basis of a medical condition called gender dysphoria.

I don't have daughters, but if I did I would not tell them on the one hand to always take a taxi with a friend, don't walk through the park at night, call if you are stranded, and on the other hand say they can't challenge a middle-aged, naked man in their locker room.

I am kind. And inclusive. Have a cup of tea, sit at my table, let's chat. It must be awful. I would react in exactly the same way that I would react to anyone who was going through a hard time.

It doesn't mean I would agree that lesbians should sleep with men, that the word woman cannot be defined or that I will not battle for the rights that our mothers, grandmothers and great-grandmothers fought for.

I would have a cuppa with you anytime Datun and I'm reading and carefully considering your posts. Just wanted to say thank you again for taking the time to respond to me. I do appreciate it.

Datun, thank you so much for those thoughtful and reasoned posts.

MyVisionsComeFromSoup

I agree. The 'I always knew' is a very consistent story.

I have read several accounts from both transwomen (mainly those attracted to men) and detransitioned transwomen. One line is that it helps the ideology to claim longevity in terms of knowing. i.e. it's a marketing tool. It is very much encouraged.

Another is the often repeated narrative from both trans and women everywhere, that boys' roles look a lot more fun to some women from an early age and vice versa.

Another theory is that gender dysphoria can start quite early, as can AGP. And has a psychological basis. Given that our psyches are often formed at a very young age, that doesn't surprise me.

You do hear a lot that trans-people have often come from abusive backgrounds, or heavily gendered backgrounds - men must be men, women must be women.

And men and women transition for different reasons. Women tend to transition to escape objectification and to leave the female role. Whereas men actively want the female role (or an idealised version of it).

I can find no one reason for gender dysphoria. It may be innate, in the same way as homosexuality or possibly it's the same as a propensity for anorexia, transablism, etc.

The recent study I read was that transwomen have the same brain as men, but they do have an increased brain area (sorry, I'm not a scientist), in terms of their self image. But whether that was because that area has grown as a result of a lot of 'ruminating over their bodies', or was innate, they couldn't tell.

Right, all round to mine. The kettle's on.

Ok. Bring wine.

I'm sorry but I don't believe anyone is transgendered. Basically my view on it is, society has made rules (figuratively speaking) regarding what each gender enjoys right down to how they are meant to feel. Some of us tend to stick quite well to the "rules" because they are happy to and typically enjoy and react to things aimed at their gender. Some men and some women don't adhere to those rules and I feel like they have now labelled that as transgender, when really they should just own their sex and act the way they want whether that be by having long hair, wearing skirts etc.

I do not for one second class a transgendered woman as a woman, it pissss me off that thy have also labelled all women as "cis" when they call themselves women. I am not the one trying to change so why should I get given the label? They may call themselves trans woman but I am sorry they are not and will never be a woman. A woman has a very clear definition and that is someone who has the ability to make carry and deliver a baby. You need ovaries and a vagina and breasts for that none of which they have even if added to their body they will never work.

In fact let me correct myself, where I have said woman I mean female. Don't want to get caught up on the gender bollocks.

DontPullThatTubeOut

Yup. it comes down to whether you think there is such a thing as a lady brain or not.

And if there is, whether you think that the difference between that of a male and that of a female would be enough to want to surgically remove your genitals.

Although, as the suicide rate goes up rather than down after surgery I'm not sure you can say that either.

Statistically the suicide rate goes up about 10 years after surgery. It spikes. Some people are very happy with surgery and it relieves their symptoms. Others find that although the surgery might help to relieve symptoms, overall they are no happier. (John Hopkin University studies - pioneers of surgery who have now stopped it).

So there is definitely something going on. There is definitely a fierce rebellion and rejection of gender roles.

The feminist theory is if you remove gender roles, you remove all rejection of them. No transgender.

Although I agree that would probably be the case, I think whatever causes gender dysphoria would leach out elsewhere.

Maybe into transablism? Wanting to chop off a limb because it feels so wrong. Or anorexia. Or self harming.

Anorexia is statistically more prevalent amongst both transwomen and transmen than for the general population. Only slightly lower than for young women.

No one thinks of changing laws to accommodate young women with anorexia.

Yet all the money, resources, debate and angst are being spent on bathroom discussion, instead of where it should go - on the causes of gender dysphoria.

Because the TRA insistence on the 'born in the wrong body' idea is a narrative that people can imagine would be horrific.

So yet again, something that is no more than an ideology, takes over. And everything gets diverted to uphold it.

Meanwhile, parents of trans children, like a couple of posters on the FWR boards are left with no options. Zero. No treatment, no therapy, counselling.

Unless they want to go down the hormone blockers route, then suddenly everyone is mobilised.

I read a while ago that someone who underwent surgery was so shocked by the results, that they travelled to Finland (I think) to get uthanised as they just couldn't go on living and realised they were wrong. I think that maybe and this is only a theory, maybe a lot of the suicides amongst those who are trans is because they are upset at how the hormones/surgery have affected them and now want a way out, and they aren't suicidal because of people's opinions.

The thing is a paedophile is called sick and disgusting (which if they act upon their urges they are) for thinking the way they do which is uncontrollable to them and some (not all) are disgusted by themselves. Why are they going without help yet if you say you want to be the opposite sex (or more recently and androgynous (I think?) alien it's acceptable and they should be helped. I find both are mental illnesses and need treated as such with therapy first of all.

DontPullThatTubeOut

Yes, that poor man was obviously searching for something and thought transitioning was the answer.

I can't imagine feeling so gender dysphoric that you want to actually remove your penis. I dipped very briefly into some images, and it's grim. Likewise having a neo vagina. Equally grim.

Personally I think it's scandalous that more money is not being thrown at the cause rather than the 'treatment'. Especially when it comes to kids.

But that's a whole other thread.

Very few women have 'bottom' surgery because it's not as successful. And only a minority of men have it. And still struggle with gender dysphoria.

And they struggle with autogynephilia too. I've seen plenty of threads where they are wracked with shame and guilt. They aren't all desperate to jack off in a cubicle next to a woman.

Porn plays a huge part in it too.

No wonder feminists get the needle.

There should be moratorium on prescribing puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones and surgery for say 4 years. Every medical professional in the country should be told to divert all their resources and money towards research.

Government grants and charities should plunge everything reserved for the current treatment, into finding out the cause.

There. Fixed it.

Women should sooo rule the world.

If it's the terribly sad case I read about, Don't, then it was a Belgian transman who was disappointed by the results of their bottom surgery. As Datun says, it's rarely successful (even the information pdf GIRES - who are a very pro-trans organisation - puts out on FTT bottom surgery is bleak reading; the side effects and loss of sexual function are horrific). I feel so sorry for people who feel this is the only way they can feel comfortable in their bodies and with the gender-role options society offers them.

I find it so shocking that children are being given these blockers on the say so of a parent. Even if the child voices the wanting of them themselves I am pretty sure the idea has been planted by the parent. I honestly believe it should be likened to child abuse as that is what I feel it is. I always always wanted to be a boy, I would dream that I was a boy and had a penis and no boobs. For years I would voice that I wanted to be a boy. I'm so glad when I was younger all this shit wasn't about because honestly I would have loved the idea of making myself into a boy. As I got older I realised I didn't want to be a boy I just wanted to do boy typical things without being judged. If I had been born in recent years and had the blockers I would honestly have killed myself, because later on I realised the amazing benefits to being a woman (I'm sure boys have realised the benefits of being a man) which was the ability to carry a baby and give birth to my own children, if I had blockers I wouldn't have been able to have children at all and I would have felt my life was not worth living, I am suicidal about other things and guarantee that I would have taken my life is this kind of thing was thrust upon me.

The problem isn't bodies at all, so testing bodies with transition doesn't address the issue. The underlying problem is strict gender norms. Without gender no one would think they need to transition. I feel sorry for people who are distressed by gender but there is no such thing as being born in the wrong body. The are too many problems that result from ignoring the issue and treating bodies, such as toilets. Men can't change into women and pretending that they can endangers women. Women need sex staggered spaces for safety (toilets for example) and fairness (sports). Tranwomen are men who struggle with society's gender expectations of men. I can empathise with that. Having empathy doesn't override the importance of women's safety though. If that's a 'transphobic' view then... guilty.

It's not transphobic KnittedBlanketHoles.

There are, as always two sides to this story. There is compassion towards people who have gender dysphoria. And of course the worry about children. And then there is the erosion of women's rights.

I can feel both of those at exactly the same time. One doesn't preclude the other.

Unfortunately, transactivists have made this into an either/or situation. It isn't.

But they use the compassion as leverage to get the rights.

It gets very muddy when you actually talk to them, but in your head, you can easily keep those two things together.

If transman means a woman transing into a man then no this one was a man changing to a woman. It's sad that these people aren't supported in accepting and learning to love their bodies just like anorexics etc would be. I'm ashamed to live in a society that supports mutilation over talking.

You cant have any therapy or discussion because the transactivists have campaigned successfully for it not to be seen as a mental health issue, and for it to be removed from the DSM

And if you DO attempt to discuss it officially, or give any 'wait and see' advice as a professional, you can risk being struck off because you are practicing conversion therapy on the transperson

Nothing at all about the fact that without blockers the majority turn out not to be trans, but gay, and actually blockers and transition is endorsed Gay Conversion therapy

It's awful, it breaks my heart thinking of those poor children having their bodies ruined forever because of their fucked up parents! I really wish I could protect them all 😔

Bet they aren't told they will never have children of their own or a healthy sexual relationship. Do the trans activists realise that if everyone who isn't strictly gender typical gets transitioned then the human race will end.

So basically only girly girls and macho boys will be able to have children and eventually trans people will die out and we will be back in the 50s? Sounds drastic but given enough years it could happen.

Im also shocked at reading that they think their surgeries come before transplants, they can fuck right off with that my daughters life is way more important than them have a fake penis or vagina!

MN isn't transphobic. Just a lot of users here see how the current narrative is slowly but surely shopping away at rights for females. Any genuine transphobia is deleted swiftly. Questioning things, and being concerned for female people is not transphobic. Also, a lot of transgender people agree that the current 'right on' thinking is damaging. Are they transphobic too?

Also as a (mainly) parenting site, I would be very concerned if this whole 'trans kids' trend was not picked up on and spoken about. A 5 year old cannot know they are trans, they should not be put on the route to puberty blockers and sterylisation just because as a male they like wearing princess dresses or something. 'Transing' kids in a lot of cases is little more than gay eugenics, which should concern EVERYONE. Something like 80% of kids who question their gender identity...if left alone (ie not put down the social/medical transition route) simply turn out to be gay adults. Where 100% of kids set down the route of transition, go on to fully transition.