Why is MN so transphobic?

[user1494271474]

I really don't understand it but it makes me sad. Trans people just want to get on with their lives and are at more risk of being harmed or murdered than anyone else.

Maudlinmaud

I was aghast when I first realised the anger that seems to permeate through a lot of transactivist. discourse. But there is ample evidence to show there are a lot of comorbid mental health issues, the most prevalent of which is narcissism.

'Narcissistic rage' is a well-known reaction to being questioned.

I'm sure there are simply loads of transwomen who just want to get on with it and are sick to death with transactivists fucking it up.

Unfortunately, the more traction the ideology has gained, the more these very angry, women hating men are coming out of the woodwork.

It's like some toxic by-product.

Now, instead of just saying oh yeah there's a handful of men who want to present as women, that's fine, people are getting mired in the most ridiculous, ludicrous justification of why biological sex is not meaningless.

I can promise you, I would not have read reams and reams of this shit, looked up scientific papers about gender dysphoria and read study after study if there weren't a significant number of people telling me that biology doesn't exist.

And if it sounds too mad to be true, I couldn't agree more. It is mad.

But try saying it. Just try saying a transwoman is a biological man to an activist.

People say, yes but these are just a few nutty men. Which is what I thought. But there are thousands. And they all want in your space.

It's a misogyny magnet.

"There isn't healthy discussion. Neither side is willing to listen to the other"

I'm happy to listen to scientific findings, logic and reasoned opinions.

I'm just not interested in listening to irrational, circular nonsense à la "I'm a woman because I think I'm a woman and you have to accept it because I say so or you are a bigot."

This is MUMsnet right ?

So , proceeding on the basis that this name comes from the idea that, originally at least , this space was for people at least notionally capable of being mothers , I'm goons parse thus...
We are women , by the still extant definition of "adult human female ", it's based on or sex , nit what we identify as . Now , OK . Live as a woman , whatever .
But I reserve the right not be told what I , as a woman , "is" , by someone who cannot even begin to imagine a lifetime walking around in female skin . That's not their fault , but by the same token , it's surely the hell not mine .
Please don't ask me to pretend away reality , I can't walk away from mine . Please quit expecting woman to deconceptualise ourselves to accommodate the feelings of people born male , don't we do that enough already ?

Come on, say you can reduce this to semantics , to the point where a thing is that which calls itself a thing , and that thinginess is defined by things defining themselves as thingy, in circles .
You've rendered the term "thing" meaningless , by depriving it of a material , recognisable basis on which it exists as a thing , rather than a whatnot .
That being the case , how can any whatnot identify itself as a thing , surely with no meaning to the word "thing " , how can they ?

And dont even try and define such questions as a phobia . That's implying women's fears are irrational
Firstly , questioning doesn't indicate fear , so poke off .
Secondly , what if women are afraid ?
That would only be a phobia if their fear was irrational , and by framing it thus - as irrational - wouldn't we be doing what society always does to women , gaslight them , tell them its all in their silly irrational , hysterical heads ? Erm no. That gets a double poke off. And when you get there , poke off until you can poke off no more .

Transphobia my fat arse .

Good point mis.

Arachnophobia living in the uk - irrational
Arachnophobia in Australia - very very sensible!!

I'm most certainly not transphobic, I really didn't know much on the subject. But thanks to mumsnet I'm learning. I resent being labelled as such. I'm a live and let live type person but those social media posts have shocked me and no I would not be happy to share an intimate space with someone who thinks it's ok to hurt women. That is based purely on the tweets I have read this am. Before that it didn't bother me one iota.

Gallavich that was me who posted about the transing in utero - it was this article:

So, when the ultrasound tech announced that her first-born would be a boy, there were lukewarm congratulations and a baby blue shower...Trinity would be the baby's middle name, in a nod to the fierce female hacker from "The Matrix" who escapes simulated reality. The idea came to DeShanna in a dream. The expectant mother was surrounded by blue wallpaper on all sides until the paper ripped into shards, exposing a patch of pink.

Baby blue shower FFS. Although apparently she's a feminist who rejects gender stereotypes. They all seem to say that, in this massive contradiction when they also mention the pink toys.

www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/69frc2/thoughts_on_the_latest_poster_child_trans_kid/

A non homophobic parent might 'interpret' that premonition that their child might be gay.

Oh and she's also transed a second boy. They mention that right at the end of the article.

Interesting.

From what so many transexual people say (and a good many transgender, especially female teens) it would probably be more accurate to say "I dont feel like society thinks I should for my sex. I really have trouble identifying with the gender stereotypes that are forced upon me, and how society views what I should be and how I should behave"
Not feeling like you fit as a man doesnt mean that you are by default a woman, it just means that what 'being a man' is needs redefining. But thats hard to do - many feminists know that because they have been fighting it for years, because it means challenging men, and society, and the (hushed voice) patriarchy.

Ive just read Grayson Perry's book on redefining masculinity, and he has it nailed.

Redefine gender, dont assume that because you dont fit you must be the other

Maudlinmaud

It's very depressing. Personally I feel very strongly about it.

I wasn't particularly interested in feminism until I discovered transactivists. When I started to look, I got an instant crash-course in feminism.

I think that's why these threads tend to divide people.

If you've never had to, or wanted to examine why women are treated differently to men, the trans ideology appears to be a simple matter of being kind and inclusive.

Quite apart from (but including), the threatening behaviour, once you start to read about the basic tenets, with even a mildly feminist filter, it starts to look very different.

There is absolutely no intrinsic reason why men and women are treated differently based on their genitals. Yet they are. The raping of women, FGM, honour killings, marrying off nine-year-olds, aborting female foetuses (100 million), right down to the pay gap, free wife work, and who writes the Christmas cards.

This happens to women, not men.

Women are considered differently, less than.

And gender roles are the method by which these are enforced.

Women couldn't vote (their brains were too feeble).

They were incarcerated for being 'hysterical' (because they left their husband, or he left them).

They are stoned to death for being raped (it's their fault because they are temptresses).

Until 1991, they were able to be legally raped by their husband (because sex is a wife's duty).

Hell, it was legal for landlords to refuse to serve me in the pub on my 21st birthday purely on the basis that I was a woman (i'm not responsible enough to make my own decisions).

So women are feeble, temptresses, hysterical, irresponsible and sexual utilities. All gendered characteristics designed for women - as a class. Laws made on that basis.

If you ask a man or a woman if they truly think that, they will say no, of course not. And who would, they say, in this day and age?

And yet. Women who are angry that men are taking over their spaces, some of whom are horrible and violent, got told they are bigoted and not being progressive.

Women who realise that the word woman is now indefinable unless it includes men, and they are not allowed to officially gather in a woman only space without the presence of a man, if that man says so, are told they are transphobic.

Women who say menstruation, abortion, and the labels for women's biology are specific to women, are told to check their privilege.

Because, as we all know, women have always held privilege over men.

And if you don't agree, you get threatened. Because, that's never happened before, has it?

The Facebook site The Critical Feminist is a fairly sensible resource.

Maudlinmaud

Pressed too soon, sorry. The point I was trying to make is that the trans-ideology reinforces gender roles.

It says that women have a lady brain. It says that if you like high heels, make up, dresses, behaving like a 'woman', you must be one. Because that's what women DO.

If men could do all those things, but still be men, that would be brilliant for feminism. It would show that certain gender roles are not specific to women and we can all go home.

Datun thank you for taking the time to post, it's very informative.

You're welcome maud.

I'm more than happy to engage with anyone, it doesn't need to degenerate into a slanging match.

I realise it's a lot to take in, and I don't want to come across as all evangelical.

But women are being fucked over.

I just want some oxygen to flow through the debate. People can make up their own minds.

Absolutely you have given me food for thought and there is nothing wrong with that. I'm not educated on these matters so tend to stay away from these threads. I may not contribute but I will read.
Certainly after seeing those posts/tweets my eyes are opening but I'm sure not all trans people think like that and maybe that's an extreme example(s). So I am prepared to keep an open mind and take people as I find them.

Why are there so many threads started on MN about how there are so many anti-trans threads?

If you don't want to read it you can hide it. If you aren't interested in the discussion don't engage. Most importantly if you are fed up with threads with transgender issues as a topic DON'T BLOODY START ANOTHER ONE.

Honestly, you're sick of transgender issue threads - I'm sick of threads about how people on MN are so mean and transphobic.

GENDER is a social construct it is primarily composed of insidious stereotypes. If we got rid of the imposed barriers of what gender means (colours, toys, careers, aptitudes, skills etc.) we could all have more freedom to be ourselves without operations, angst and medication. We could then focus on those suffering from true dysphoria to get the real help they need; proper mental health help (operations if required) instead of having it all removed as is currently the case and leaving those in need with no real support system bar the internet activists. It's a real mess out there right now and the current state of trans activism isn't helping women or trans people.

Mn, can we have a "why is mn so horrible and transphobic" topic

joking!

So I am prepared to keep an open mind and take people as I find them.

Absolutely. I don't know what the statistics are, because no one has compiled them. Whether your genuine transsexual outnumbers your pervy transactivist, or not.

I do know, that it is the latter who are getting the laws changed and are very high profile.

Miranda Yardley is a transwoman. She is the partner of Helen Highwater.

They are both gender critical transwomen. Google them, they are worth a read. (Although Miranda has retired from Twitter due to all the abuse from transactivists. But she has started a thread on the FWR boards if you are interested).

From what I have read, as a rule of thumb, if a transwoman is attracted to men (so gay, in my opinion), they are generally far more sensible people, as they are usually just motivated by gender dysphoria.

If they are into women, that tends to attract those with autogynephilia (sexual arousal at the thought of being a woman) which is when it can get nasty.

This also accounts for the polarising of opinion. Many people know transwomen from the former group and simply can't correlate their behaviour with those of the latter. And they get very indignant. Understandably.

It's almost as if MN being awkward about transgender activism is being discussed on another forum and then they come here and start a thread to tell us we're transphobic.

what I don't understand though, is that there's lots of people online who "just knew" because they played with girls/boys toys, preferred trousers/dresses and so on, but there's no discussion about cultural differences in gender presentation. It's OK for a Scottish man to wear a skirt (kilt), it's OK in some Arabic countries for men to wear dresses (tunics), and then there's football - in the UK a child playing football would stereotypically be a boy, but in the US, that same child would be a girl (playing soccer). Does the gender fairy recognise country boundaries when they attach the gender to the newborn?

ExplodedCloud it wouldn't take a huge leap to imagine that is indeed the case. I guess we will continue to see an influx of posters starting threads like this. But tbh I find it educational. What they don't seem to realise is that this will/can harm their agenda. Or maybe that's the point.

Funny that Explodedcloud.

This is surely a steaming pile of GF?

I'd just like to commend Datun on these threads who is always patient and takes the time to post informatively. I have never seen her being rude to anyone. I think the kind and patient approach is sometimes wilfully ignored on these threads.

I second that Datun thanks for your patience.

Thirded.

Fourthed. Thank you for your well-reasoned contributions to this subject, Datun.