To ask if you think Jeremy Corbin will stand down after GE?

[LenaDunham]

Sorry, I know there are so many threads about the GE/politics.

I am just wondering what will happen after the GE. I am a Labour supporter and will vote Labour but I think it is highly likely Labour will come out very badly.

Will Jererny resign? Will there be a split? Are we really going to have Tory gov't again???

Anyone have any insights to give me hope?

But succulent was talking about the UK, not the political system. And historically, the most successful parties tend to be centrist as you well know.

Labour under Miliband lurched left and did worse. Labour under Corbyn have gone further left and look certain to do even worse. I don't think that's a coincidence.

Enthusiasm, do you think we should develop a rota system for these threads . Perhaps we could prepare a script. Blair won 3 elections. There has always been a right wing press, deal with it. Party membership numbers are meaningless.

I have to laugh because it is just so mind numbingly depressing. They have stolen the Labour party. They could at least take responsibility for the effects of this theft.

Good idea birds

Maybe if we say it often enough the information will at some point be at least given some thought rather than just instantly dismissed

But then again maybe not

Nah, we're just poor brainwashed sheeple.

succulentchinesemeal If the country has a "natural" leaning to the right then our first word must be "capital" and we think Maggie was our mum. You can't argue any ideological position is natural, unless you don't actually understand the definition of the word. It's conditioned.

The problem is politicial parties don't exist to govern for governing's sake, they exist to govern with some purpose. Corbyn argues for the protection of the NHS, a properly enforced taxation system, a social care budget that actually protects the health and personal dignity of our most vulnerable, and working people (including nurses) not having to access food banks. I've watched I, Daniel Blake once and found it a moving depiction of the realities of our unfair welfare system, not a film worthy of petty dismissal on an Internet forum, Luciana Berger, a bona fide Blairite was a keen supporter of the film and advocate of its message. By the same token why don't you go to your playlist consisting of "Things Can Only Get Better" on loop. Better? We got a legally defined war criminal as prime minister and lost 8.6 million labour votes between 1997 and 2010. In the few months post-Milliband, Hartman-led Labour propped up the Tory benefit cap. How is that proper opposition? We were actual partners in unjust austerity.

It's staggering that centrist Labour believe things would be different with the likes of Cooper/Kendall/Smith in charge. Have you actually followed international politics and how centre left politics has done recently? Hillary Clinton anyone? The analysis showed that Sanders (further left) had a much more likely chance of beating Trump, but the Democratic establishment were dead set against him getting the nomination. But if it makes you feel better, just dismiss Corbyn on the basis that he argued against our "natural" right wing inclination. After all, a strong opposition should involve a similar ideology to the governing party, as that gives such a good starting point to proper scrutiny, doesn't it

Strange that for all these protests of how people aren't sheep, I can't see anyone attacking Labour's actual policies or making any reference to them at all. Just personal attacks on Corbyn.

I'm labour, always have been and pro-Corbyn, but I actually want the Conservatives to win so that they can continue to utterly wreck the NHS, destroy the welfare state and roll back social progress and equality to about the 1800s. Plus they can then deal with the twin effects of the cuts and the cluster fuck that is Brexit and the ensuing recession. I will be moving abroad, I cannot stand the insular, xenophobic, selfish and individualistic nation that this country has become. England is right-wing and will remain so, sadly I think it would take another world war before people choose socialism again.

There has been plenty of posts about the policies

The polices that are not backed up by solid proposals numbers are plucked out of the air and the same answer tax the rich, drop trident and higher tax for business

What about considering Brexit in all the policies or the impact that Brexit will have on business

England is centre to the right

I'm labour, always have been and pro-Corbyn, but I actually want the Conservatives to win so that they can continue to utterly wreck the NHS, destroy the welfare state and roll back social progress and equality to about the 1800s. Plus they can then deal with the twin effects of the cuts and the cluster fuck that is Brexit and the ensuing recession. I will be moving abroad, I cannot stand the insular, xenophobic, selfish and individualistic nation that this country has become
Wow, did you read that back before posting, I don't know what we'll do without big hearted people like you in the UK

Are you going to win gotta. Are you going to win 3 elections. But I forget winning is meaningless, why bother when you can shout from the sidelines, it achieves so much.

Actually this thread shows yet again what a broad church Labour is. Both major parties have factions, but the Tories have always managed theirs much better, and always in the interest of forming govnermnet.

Gotta, I'm left of centre and I despise JC for turning people away from what I think are some good ideas. No matter how principaled and decent you think he is (and I don't as it happens) he's got to bring the country with him. There is NO evidence that he's managed that at all, but plenty that he's done the opposite. It is evident to anyone with eyes that most people in this country are not warming to his ideas and as leader, he must take responsibility for that.

As for centre left collapse, maybe look at France and Canada. Clinton won the popular vote and all the evidence suggests that Bernie wouldn't have come close.

England is centre to the right

Fiji is anarcho-syndicalist
Monetenegro is social democratic
Germany is Eco-feminist
Canada is neolibertarian
China is apathetic

If arguing that a country is fundamentally, concretely one ideology isn't representative of a sheepish idea, then WTF is? I'm borderline about to post dictionary.com links to the words "natural" and "conditioned".

My DH voted Labour for the first time in the local elections. The Tories picked up UKIP seats because of Theresa May's terrifying hard Brexit stance, but they didn't do as well against Labour as they'd expected to.
I like Corbyn, although I don't think he's charismatic enough to be a leader, that should be John McDonnell.

20nil the Tories managed their factions so badly that we ended up with Brexit.

They managed their factions well enough to be in power.

Obviously, but they're in government and that's all they care about. Being in government means that they can continue to wreck the country for several more years. Whereas Labour under JC contributed to Brexit through his limp 'support' for remain, didn't get a proper policy together for months and continues to sound confused and directionless about the most important issue the country has faced for decades. Way to go Jeremy.

I never said England is one ideology

It was a response to another poster who said England was right wing it isn't it is centre to the right that is where we are now

We sometimes move centre to the left which has different ideas but we tend to stay quite central that doesn't mean we are all sheep as centre right and centre left are different politically

We don't sway in support from further to the left and further to the right which has thankfully kept facisim out of politics

Though of course we know all Corbyn supporters are far more intellectually able to see beyond what others simply do not get and like a mantra they keep repeating the same lines, making the same statements while ignoring the facts in front of them a bit like followers following their master some might say or others might say sheep mentality

The Tories are also good at managing their fractions

That is why they are so successful

They slipped up a bit during Blairs time and certainly fucked up with Brexit but here they are about to win a landslide

Yeah. The Conservatives have an innate desire to be in power and belief that it's their natural home as part of their DNA. I won't say ideology because I think generally, that pragmatism and need to be in charge has trumped actual ideology most of the time. That's the huge difference between them and Labour. The number of people within Labour who are much less bothered about being in power than they are about keeping ideologically pure is much lower, or at least much less influential.

Unfortunately for all of us, they're both having a bit of an extreme wings moment right now. Hence, politics being fairly awful and the Tories being about to win significantly because their organisation and discipline has always been better. Good to see that other posters recognise this too. Honestly I think if we had even a quasi-legit centrist at the moment (and bear in mind May looked like the best Tory leader option last summer because she was the most moderate) they would clean up.

I remember someone jokingly saying before the 2015 GE that there should be a coalition of Blue Labour, One Nation Tories and Orange Book Lib Dems. I'm more to the left myself, I voted Labour in 2015, but honestly I'd take that right now if it were on offer.

Great post missshitty, I think that development in the Labour party is recent though, the ideology over results brigade were carefully managed under Blair and to be fair under Kinnock also. It's only recently that they have taken power. And it's going swimmingly obviously. Blair understood politics. Made lots of mistakes but understood politics.

Thanks.

You are right that Blair and Kinnock managed those tendencies of the party very well, but that was also as a reaction to them not having been curbed for some time before that. What we're seeing now, harks back to an even earlier era. It took Kinnock years and years and two failed elections to get it done. 70s and early to mid 80s. One of Thatcher's greatest achievements was what she inspired Labour to do to itself.

For myself I do agree with a number of the things Corbyn says, I'm not Blue Labour at all. It's just that the UK seems to have a problem with combining anything beyond mild centre left policies with remotely competent leadership. And they both matter.

I'll be honest Gotta, I do not understand half of the gibberish you've written.

However what is clear is that you understand even less about international politics than you do the UK.

Sanders had no chance, the Democrats knew this, which is why they went for Clinton. The shambles that is the electoral college system cost Clinton, winning the popular vote is hardly a rejection of the centre left.

The French election is between the the centre left and the right wing. The left wing were left trailing in what is a socialist country.

On another thread a few weeks ago some other Branch Corbynian said watch out for Melenchon before the 1st round, as if there were some left wing resurgence going on. Strangely enough that didn't happen, and Melenchon's sole contribution subsequently has been to say he won't tell his supporters to vote for Macron. When the alternative is a fucking fascist!!!

The extreme left and right have one thing in common, that the majority of the centre think both extremes are ideological arseholes you wouldn't want to be stuck alone in a room with.

The majority of people don't care about ideology when they vote - they care about their own lives & what Govt they think will be best for them personally. Until they get affected by something personally, a reasonable majority will put up with weaker/poorer members of society getting fucked over by the Govt, providing it's not affecting them. Why do you think the Tories have managed to win elections (& will win again) despite being on an austerity ticket?

Voters care about the economy, and along with appalling leadership, this is where Labour fails most. Corbyn & his front bench of inadequates (with maybe the exception of Watson and Starmers) couldn't run a school fete, let alone the country. It's for this reason that I cannot vote for Labour for the first time in 25 years (although I will not vote Tory either).

Come 9th June all those blindly following the cult that is Corbyn should hang their heads in shame for what they've done to the Labour Party & burdened the rest of us with 5 more years of the Tories. But hey, you can all cheer yourselves up watching some more Ken Loach poverty/misery porn and say how cruel & unjust the world is taking no account for your actions.

And what MissShitty said

Succulentchinesemeal

Yeah and absolutely none of the blame will have anything to do people like you tearing the Labour Party apart from the inside will it. Just keep telling yourself that.

Yes I think this is why the older part of the Labour party are so aghast at current developments. We know this section of the Labour party from Kinnock time and before. We know how they behave. It might look shiny new and hopeful to those who haven't seen it before. But it's not new and it certainly isn't hopeful. And above all its certainly not "nice" . It's deeply scary and no the right wing press didn't tell me that I have seen it for over 30 years with my own eyes. You are right succulent, it is a cult. I honestly believe that some of them think they are going to win. It's the ones who know they can not win that anger me the most. But you know they get to shout at the evil Tories so all is well with the world.