Page 8 | This is a goady thread

ThroughThickAndThin01 · 05/05/2017 11:58

Polish your halo 😇 op. You have everything plus you want to educate the plebs! You are an inspiration.

toomuchtooold · 05/05/2017 12:01

I've just read back up the thread and I see that the only thing that anyone's engaged with from motherhood's great post about leftwing resistance to NHS reform is the fact that "third world" was a hyperblic, not factually accurate, description of the NHS. Guys this is exactly what is wrong with the left wing attitude to the NHS. You're not engaging with the criticisms, you're just trying to bat them off.

There are plenty of better systems than the NHS in Europe, but we'll never get one in the UK, because the Tories are only interested in carving it up so their mates can make money off it, while ensuring that top class care is still available for the rich - as it is now TBH, having lived in some more and less affluent areas of England I think the standard of primary care especially is massively dependent on where you live - and Labour won't consider reform for the reasons motherhood set out. The only time I ever voted Tory was in the... 2012 I guess, 2012 mayoral elections. I had a medical condition that I got NHS investigation for, not treatment, not the slightest bit of sympathy or compassion for, just endless waiting, lost blood results, lost paperwork, receptionists who didn't even try to hide their disdain... the night I went into an A&E miscarrying and was told to "get behind the line" while the A&E receptionist chatted with an off duty paramedic and I bled onto the floor. I complained, then, lots of other times, my complaints got upheld, people were sent for retraining, NHS people in suits told me they were sorry I felt that way, and that they would take my comments on board. You know? I was legitimately pissed off. And when it came to the mayoral election I just couldn't stomach voting for yet another Labour gonk who would go an visit the places I'd been fucked up in, bigging up the NHS, standing next to nurses and paramedics and hailing them as heroes. So I voted Tory, for all the good it would do me.
I'm kind of over it now (I live in Germany, where we pay a fucking fortune into a semi-private system with private provision and socialised health insurance, and get amazingly good service) but when I see those memes on facebook - share if you think our nurses are angels - share if you're proud of the NHS - no, I think the NHS is a fucking disgrace and it's my biggest problem with Labour that they so unquestioningly support it in its current form.

user1471545174 · 05/05/2017 12:04

OP, I accused you of hypocrisy, not hypocracy.

I wouldn't applaud you for selfishness, I'd applaud you for not being a hypocrite. SPAG sarcasm aside, it is a useful word to know and understand.

FWIW the many Labour voters I know are far meaner on a personal level than the Tories.

Original poster

cannotbelievethistoday · 05/05/2017 12:09

How rich is a person allowed to be vote to
Labour? The very rich get accused of hypocrisy, the poor of envy.

I didn't start this thread to have a discussion about policy. I started it because I can't get my head around good people making decisions that hurts themselves or their neighbours. The conservative idealogy directly contradicts with help they neighbour.

OP posts:

TheRealPooTroll · 05/05/2017 12:11

If by 'educate the plebs' you mean providing every child with a quality education rather than the few who can afford to pay for it then I think that would be a good idea.

MotherhoodFail · 05/05/2017 12:12

This reply has been withdrawn

Message from MNHQ: This post has been withdrawn

MrsSummerisle · 05/05/2017 12:15

I have private school for my children. I own my house outright. I have private medical insurance. I have savings in the bank. I own a second property outright which is let out. I go on many many holidays a year (approximately 6-8). The absolute devastation that the tories are reaping on public services will largely pass me by.

I vote labour.

Of course you do - you need to be rich to afford the colossal taxes and economic collapse St. Jeremy would bring us

jojo2916 · 05/05/2017 12:25

We have a democracy here where we can vote for who we like (yes even the poor!) surely you are not against people choosing to vote for whoever they want to, what would you prefer a dictator? I don't vote Tory but we can all vote for who we want , poorer people probably have a greater insight into how gov policy affects them as they are often living in the heart of areas where these issues are at the forefront , you don't always see the real world from a leafy suburb. My dp family were pretty skint when he was younger and are grateful to torus they could buy their council house and have managed to do well, not saying I agree with Tory policy at all but even poor people are allowed to vote for who they see fit

Puzzledandpissedoff · 05/05/2017 12:30

Interesting to see all the usual claims that those who vote conservative are ignorant, uncaring, deluded and more tired old insults - whatever happened to respecting a difference of opinion?

Does it genuinely not occur that others might also have concerns about the NHS, the poor, Brexit and all the rest, but simply not feel that Labour's approach would bring the best results for us all?

I realise that MN is perceived to be a bastion of the Left, but has it really gone so far that folk can no longer appreciate another point of view?

scaryteacher · 05/05/2017 12:33

Is the OP Lady Nugee (Emily Thornberry)? It always strikes me that those with more can afford to vote Labour, because as she says, she has enough not to be affected by any austerity from any party. She uses private education for her kids, but Labour would prefer to take that choice away.

Fyi OP it's love your neighbour, not help him. Love sometimes has to be tough.

derxa · 05/05/2017 12:44

Is the OP Lady Nugee (Emily Thornberry)? Best line of the day. This is exactly the problem.

TeaForever · 05/05/2017 12:44

I wonder if part of the issue too is that the disparity between rich & poor is now so huge (and getting worse) that the very poorest and very most vulnerable in our society aren't finding it easy (if even possible) to vote at all, so their opinions aren't counted, which is a tragedy.
In my current neck of the woods, street homelessness has massively risen, and is rising all the time. I get the impression this is a fairly typical situation in most of our towns & cities at the moment? The lack of address makes voting impossible I presume? Also people who are almost in that situation, but not quite - sofa surfers, those constantly moving for precarious employment on scandalously low wages etc - it's exhausting. Life is so physically & emotionally tiring for so many people in our fractured society now that voting is, totally understandably, often the last thing on people's minds.

I actually think that rich people who vote Tory are worse in many ways, as to me they're being so selfish. How can people walk past street homeless people on the way back from well-paid jobs to their comfy homes, and not feel a stirring of conscience?

Victorian Britain is back, and we need to wake up before it's too late

Bringmesunshite · 05/05/2017 12:47

I won't vote Tory but I won't vote Labour.

QuietCorday · 05/05/2017 12:52

Okay, I'll say the controversial thing here.

I have private school for my children. I own my house outright. I have private medical insurance. I have savings in the bank. I own a second property outright which is let out. I go on many many holidays a year (approximately 6-8). The absolute devastation that the tories are reaping on public services will largely pass me by.

I vote labour.

The Labour party was not established to serve the political, social and economic interests of people in your position. It was set up to serve people who were in precisely the opposite situation: no chance of private schooling for their children, no chance to own their own property, no savings and no chance of gaining any ... in fact, the Labour movement was set up to protect the working class from the political and economic stance of people in your position, particularly rentier capitalists.

The problem is that Labour knows people in your position now vote for the party. This influences their policies as they attempt to retain your vote, and, in turn, they adopt policies do not necessarily benefit their traditional voters...

...which is why Labour is losing vast swathes of its core support.

OvariesBeforeBrovaries · 05/05/2017 12:54

Does it genuinely not occur that others might also have concerns about the NHS, the poor, Brexit and all the rest, but simply not feel that Labour's approach would bring the best results for us all?

How is the Tory approach helping the poor and disabled? I mean, there are fewer poor and disabled people now, but I'm not sure killing them can really be called a victory?

derxa · 05/05/2017 12:56

Victorian Britain is back It really isn't.

Mainlywingingit · 05/05/2017 13:02

Cantbelievethistoday - I'm in a similar situation to you financially but I generally vote Tory especially now as I believe they are the best people to steer us through Brexit (I voted to stay in) and labour seems all over the place although I've voted for them in the past. It's all topsy turvy and people could ask you the same question ....

Why do you vote labour? You are invested in the private elitist school system, not a labour view at all.
You have a second property you own outright to let to make more money. Again labour would choose to tax you so heavily on this as it's pushing up and exploiting poorer people while you make a mint. Again not a labour policy ?!!

TeaForever · 05/05/2017 13:03

derxa for some people it really is. Forgive me, but you sound a little out of touch. Food banks, homelessness, slave wages for awful & unstable jobs... These things are reality for far too many people.

Also the fact that rich people are getting so much wealthier at the expense of the poor, is very much the victorian model.

Of course it's not literally as bad across the board, but it's heading in that direction if we're not careful.

saltandvinegarcrisps1 · 05/05/2017 13:07

more evidence
www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/election-shock-ferguslie-park-elects-10360648

Puzzledandpissedoff · 05/05/2017 13:13

How is the Tory approach helping the poor and disabled?

Perhaps by trying (not necessarily always succeeding, but at least trying) to encourage aspiration and self reliance wherever possible, along with a stronger economy to help pay for support where it isn't? I hope we'd all agree that support for the genuinely needy is vital, but that's not going to be achieved by wrecking the economy or by wallowing in the mindset which gives rise to little notes about there being no money left

Ironically I have a severely disabled son myself and know what it's like to go through the mill to get help. I certainly don't agree with all Tory policies in this area, but my own experience is that it's always been much harder to access support when dealing with Labour councils, labour MPs and those appointed under a labour government

Sorry to offer a negative experience of the supposed saviours of society, but there it is ...

Mainlywingingit · 05/05/2017 13:29

Does it not strike others that it is also odd the the OP gets richer while the poor get poorer (letting out second property) , privately educating your children so they do better- and then votes Labour?!

Nothing wrong in those choices but then I vote Tory...

OvariesBeforeBrovaries · 05/05/2017 13:39

Puzzled so the people who die due to benefit sanctions are collateral damage in this push towards self-reliance and aspiration? Are they failed experiments?

I don't see Labour as the saviours of society.

YoureSparticus · 05/05/2017 13:40

saltandvinegarcrisps1

Evidence of what?

Perhaps it's evidence that people want what the Tories have to offer. They like the idea of self-reliance as opposed to a life on benefits being a lifestyle choice.

QuietCorday

That's an excellent point. Patronising fuckwits posting how rich they are but still vote Labour are missing the point and are so self-absorbed that they struggle to understand anyone who doesn't agree with them. Perhaps the banging the head on the wall isn't a metaphor. At least we'll be spared the 'look at me, aren't I amazing' posts or more angst filled diatribes when they realise they're in a tiny minority come the general election.

Goldfishjane · 05/05/2017 13:54

There's nothing surprising about people like op voting labour though
They have enough that it doesn't really matter to them who gets in.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 05/05/2017 13:56

so the people who die due to benefit sanctions are collateral damage in this push towards self-reliance and aspiration?

Given that sanctions are imposed on a case by case basis it's impossible to say unless I knew the circumstances of all of them - which I obviously don't

Certainly some will have been caught in the net of "unintended consequences", and I'd expect that the system to contain enough flexibility to address this (and in fact I have real experience of it doing exactly that). For others sanctions may well be justified and appropriate, which may or may not be acceptable depending on the individual's point of view

I guess what I'm really trying to say is that such a complex issue can't really be boiled down to "poor downtrodden claimant" versus "nasty evil government" ... it's a lot more involved than that