To ask who is happy with the way Brexit is going?

[Bearbehind]

I've started a few threads with similar titles over the months but this weekend seems to have been an outpouring of bad news so I wondered who is actually happy with how things are going

From where I'm standing

-It's looking like the government are actually as deluded as many of us feared if you believe the leaked account of this weeks meeting with the EU.
-Theresa May's election campaign is made up of staged events with staged audiences and preselected questions

• there is no opposition to speak of

Who is happy with these continued sound bites in lieu of actual answers and policies?

Ok so the plan, if there is one, is only known by the Government.

Yes it was always that way and it always will be. We have only ever had the illusion of control.

Do we have any useful ideas for some of the ways they might negotiate (the 'what do we have to offer' question) or suggestions of what might be acceptable on NI or Calais?

Do you really thin that TM and the tories are reading MN for ideas?

How can we be confident of getting a good deal if we have very little to offer (except money which we have already refused to pay, by all accounts)?

The little that we have to offer is an opinion that not all share. When you look at what the UK imports from the EU.

You know something Bear for the average man/woman on the street, being in or out of the EU will make bugger all difference. Prices might go up a bit but on average that's all.

Where I live we can actually see Europe. We are the gateway to Europe and overwhelmingly voted to leave (I was remain), and actually I can see why. Whilst businesses, the city and other concerns made good money through the EU, this cash didn't trickle down. All the average person here gets from our trade is lorries thundering through the town, the town stuffed up with parked trucks, poor air quality and illlegal immigrants.

You can kind of see why they thought that being out of the EU was worth a try.

I'm now of the position that it's happening so we might as well embrace it. What the future looks like? Who knows but then I don't think we know what would of been the future staying in. The EU has systemic problems and didn't seem to be interested in reforming.

I actually think we were a poor fit for the EU. If a split hadn't happened now, then it would of come sometime in the future.

here if by Calais you mean the Le Touquet treaty, that's bilateral with France, and nothing to do with the EU. As Calais/Dunkirk etc are the external Schengen border, then something has to be there to protect that border.

Renaissance If you are in Dover, then when I come over from Brussels, I spend money in hotels, restaurants (love Cinnamon Island and the Allotment) and the sewing shop, I also shop in Folkestone and Ashford.

Boney "Do you really thin that TM and the tories are reading MN for ideas?"

No I do not (of course) though I do know someone in the civil service in the Brexit team who purchased Negotiating for Dummies when she made the move to that dept, I'm afraid I'm not joking

I would like to know what ideas do we have - there can't be an infinite list of them - it's common to guess what policy decision may be made or how large public problems will be solved and my questions are no different. What is ideal for me as a remainer may well not be ideal for a Brexiter - what are 'must haves' what are 'live withs' and 'what are maybes'? Is there anything that is a 'deal breaker'? I'd like to see ideas and discussion!

I think I'm seeing an answer that 'we' (the UK) think our market for existing imports into the UK from the EU will be a strong enough 'must have' for the EU that it will generate reciprocal favour for our own must haves. Yes?

What do we think about the 'fee' we pay? Are we willing to pay a lower contribution for less rights or must not a single penny be paid in after Brexit?

I think Britain should pay for any already agreed commitments to the EU and thereafter I would be ok about paying a fee for tariff free trade with the EU provided its economical.

I have had a little snigger at someone who was all pro brexit whose now outraged his Polish wife doesn't qualify for permanent residence yet. Very sad for her but I'm also an EU national and used to tell him about these things and get pooh poohed.
I hope the negotiations will guarantee her status as I'm not a total bitch but it's quite satisfying in a bitter sort of way.
Today's press has me down tho. I think the leavers and our Govt are in cloud cuckoo land and reality will be tough

"and thereafter I would be ok about paying a fee for tariff free trade with the EU provided its economical." I agree with you less. I wonder if the EU would be up for shifting their position on free movement at all, given their current position? I'm wondering if we'll get a 'modified free movement' (the EU will call it free movement with limited exceptions, we'll call it controlling immigration with sensible exceptions to keep the country running or some such).

What concerns me about the current press/atmosphere being whipped up is the combative/anti-each other tone. I'm hoping that blows over. Juncker can be a right wanker but thankfully there are systems in place whereby he can't cut the EU's nose off to spite its face (the bureaucracy the brexiters and some remainers, so hate).

There are many good reasons for leaving the EU, one major being the EU can go one of 2 ways in the near future. Either the weaker or stronger break away due to the problems of econonic imbalances or its becomes the U.S.E and has government to solve the north vs South imbalance. Either one of them were better out of before it begins.
Looking forward to the future generations having their own destiny in their hands without the cajoling of 20 odd other vested national intetests.

Thank you Yabba - do you have any thoughts on the deal that may be struck? What would be deal and what do you think are likely sticking points?

Its a lot more than a wing and a prayer. Great! So what is it then?
Its called 2 years of negotiation, and hard work. Why are you ignoring reality?

Bearbehind, your just not able to grasp that in several years time we will be out of the EU. That is the GOOD that will come of it. You seem to be asking the same question over and over again because you dont like or cant accept the answer. We just want to leave!

jamie you're just not able to grasp that, rather than accepting your blind faith that it'll all be fine, many of us would like some actual evidence.

Its called 2 years of negotiation, and hard work. Why are you ignoring reality?

I'm not ignoring reality, I'm trying to discuss what the likely negotiations/outcomes could be. I don't want to say 'only the government know' then switch my mind off the subject for 2 years an wait for an announcement. I think that some Brexiters must have some idea of how it would work, as they voted for this wholesale change. I am, however, just as happy to read and discuss constructive suggestions/ideas from remainers and non-voters alike.

To me it's no different than others elsewhere on MN saying 'how do you think Trump will be impeached' or 'what policy with the Tories/Labour/LibDems SNP suggest next?' or 'how will [they] counter an opposing party's GE pledge?'. I'm well aware MNetters are not at the driving seat of policy creation (or Brexit negotiation) but it doesn't mean that it is a subject that is off limits/not meriting discussion/there is nothing to discuss. I'm not expecting 42.

Bearbehind the EU itself when it formed this 'membership' didn't put together what an exit strategy would look like for any country wanting to leave so instead of pouring all the blame on the current Government not having a plan acknowledge that the EU itself didn't. Therefore its new ground for all parties hence the 2 yr negotiation where there is going to be lots of false news being spead about until a deal is drafted. Your not going to get the answers you are looking because guess what both the UK and the EU themselves don't know.

The blame lies at the feet of all the EU members for forming a membership and failing to think and plan for any country to leave.

JamieX "We just want to leave!"

Do you think leaving at any cost would be worth it? What if we can no longer afford the NHS and the Tories prevails it and bring an end to healthcare that is free at the point of contact? What if most food in the supermarket is 50% more expensive? What if there is an economic recession so severe we have mass youth unemployment? What if we lose our remaining manufacturing industry as the cost of importing parts rises?

I'm not being goady, was your vote 'out at any cost'? Would anything be too high a price to pay? You may say no. That's fine, I'm just trying to work out the 'deal breaker' line and where it falls for different people.

Bearbehind, you're just not able to grasp that you can't have evidence for something that hasn't happened. It just sounds like your asking for the impossible to try and wreck the process.

Brexiteers have no plan. Of course, it's easier for them to blame the EU.

As they fall over the cliff, they'll still be blaming the EU.

herethereandeverywhere, of course we can discuss what the likely negotiations/outcomes could be, but we also have to accept that the government will be the only ones that know for quite some time.

*prevails = privatise. If I can't switch off autocorrect can I get a coloured squiggle so I can see what it has changed without my permission?

FFS, this is beyond tedious.

I'm not asking who is to 'blame'

I'm not praying we get the worst possible deal to teach us a lesson.

I'm not insulting anyone.

I'm asking what benefits are going to outweigh the consequences of leaving.

It's not a difficult question if you think out future is brighter outside the EU.

The fact not a single person, nearly 1 year on, can even attempt to answer this says all I need to know.

PeterHouseMD...really so you think its ok that the EU members forming a membership didn't need to have thought up of an exit plan? Would you enter a membership and accept the T&C's when no exit strategy or understanding of your obligations if you decide to leave? SO why should it be any different?

herethereandeverywhere

Do you think staying in the membership with year on year increases to the fee means we will be able to afford the NHS? What if our economy does too well and we have to pay even more (as we did one year). Do you think its worth the money paying in even more to help other countries who are struggling whilst we still have people homeless on the street? Elderly not getting proper care? People on long waiting lists for operations?

As I already said before all economies go through a cycle of boom and bust its been happening for decades so yes there will be another bust and then there will another boom and it wil continue that way. Being in or out is not going to change that - might accelerate it but it will still happen.

Of course I dont want to leave the EU at any cost but I cant see any costs on the horizon that come close to worrying me.

"but we also have to accept that the government will be the only ones that know for quite some time." I'm aware of this although I'm not happy with it. Given there are a finite set of positions for each side then I'd favour more transparency. Perhaps we will see this as time goes on. It's preferable to the inevitable leaks, which will undoubtedly come from both sides.

It's no different to disclosing a skeleton argument in litigation - quite helpful to avoid prolonged, expensive and unnecessary positioning on certain points.

Bear just out of curiosity - how old are you??