To ask who is happy with the way Brexit is going?

[Bearbehind]

I've started a few threads with similar titles over the months but this weekend seems to have been an outpouring of bad news so I wondered who is actually happy with how things are going

From where I'm standing

-It's looking like the government are actually as deluded as many of us feared if you believe the leaked account of this weeks meeting with the EU.
-Theresa May's election campaign is made up of staged events with staged audiences and preselected questions

• there is no opposition to speak of

Who is happy with these continued sound bites in lieu of actual answers and policies?

Oh, you can use pathetic insults against the 17.4 million people who voted leave Michael. You sound like a rational, sensible, open-minded, thoughtful sort of person that we should all be listening to. Please, do tell us idiots more - I'm sure you are right.

Micheal it a shame that you feel the need to bring the level of discussion down by name calling on what is one of the better threads about Brexit.

But alas you even missed my small response on the question you had about the drop in the currency ... didn't even acknowledge I actually did respond to one of your questions but lets not let that get in the way of you saying I haven't got any answers when I have shown you in one question that I do.

spectre, were you referring to your comment about making lots of money on the FSTE 100 during the last recession? If so I choose to ignore that comment because it doesn't exactly help many people does it?

I was looking for benefits that might be a comfort to the majority in dealing with the already known consequences- could you give us any of those?

But to keep a cellar of food is being optimistic.

Nice try! But you know as well as I do it's the complete opposite. It's 'I think everything is going to go to total shit, so I'm going to get ready' while the optimist is wafting through meadows singing about how lovely it's all going to be.

I often think those with a healthy dose of pessimism are more resilient when things do go to shit. They're not surprised.

By the way I hate being called a "Brexiteer" when I make any sort of comment or observation that isn't entirely doom-laden. (I have not said how I voted by the way)

People voted to leave the EU for a million different reasons: lawyers, small businesspeople, pensioners, people who understand money and the economy - and people who don't. Some voted on the issue of immigration, some on budget matters, some - to lump everyone together is just stupid.

BadKnee

Practically everyone who understood the economy voted Remain.
There was a very high correlation between voting Remain and education level.

On average the proportion of Remain votes would be around 1% higher in an area if the proportion of people with a degree or equivalent was 1% higher.

metro.co.uk/2017/02/07/if-you-voted-for-brexit-youre-not-going-to-like-this-6433145/#ixzz4fuA05ONj

Someone upthread asked who would you rather see lead the negotiations?

I actually think Nick Clegg would do a great job, at least he appears to have some sort of concept of how to negotiate with Europeans which is sadly lacking in the current shower.

But the 'all pulling together' rhetoric apparently doesn't mean 'co-operating with and listening to the concerns of remainers', it seems to mean 'shut up and let me do this my way'.

I can't believe the discussion on the demographics if the referendum hasn't moved on a bit from "more educated people voted remain because they understand the economy".

It really is a bit more complex than that.

Older people are less likely to have degrees.
Higher education is related to class.
Graduates tend to be better off.
etc
etc
etc

Also, a correlation is just that, a correlation. Plenty of people with degrees voted leave (around 40% if I remember correctly) so to try and present this as "Clever and educated people voted remain" is really a bit, well, not clever.

and Jen Mills should be ashamed of the headline for that Metro article (or whoever wrote the headline). Nasty, sneery, divisive stuff.

Okay, so if I edit Michael's very good points to remove the insults that are so hurtful to the Brexiters:

*What I don't understand is what exactly.... we've got in the way of cards to play:-

Threaten a trade war? - well we'd lose 50% of our exports, they'd only lose 12% of theirs.

Plus that would prompt a mass exodus of banks and manufacturing jobs to.... er.... the EU.

Refuse to guarantee the rights of EU citizens? - well they'll all just fuck off home, leaving huge gaps in our workforce. While the vast majority of Brits living in the EU don't work, and will be no loss at all to their current host nation.

Threaten to.... er..... what else?*

This appears to me to be FACT - what cards do we have to play in this negotiation?

We also have the problems of:

1. Border between NI and the Republic. The EU has already kicked up a bit of a shitstorm with Unionists by promising automatic EU membership for the North if it votes for a United Ireland. I'm unsure whether it was intentionally incendiary or simply foolhardy but with the deterioration of relations in NI since the dissolution of the Assembly and death of McGuinness it does not come at a good time.
2. French threats to stop dealing with the migrant issue at Calais. I have to say I don't envy the job they are doing there but I fear for our truckers and regular travellers if intervention is reduced in any meaningful way. Yet what do they have to lose on this one, other than a major and publicly unpopular thorn in their side?

Okay, so if I edit Michael's very good points to remove the insults that are so hurtful to the Brexiters

Sorry, didn't read past that.

If you want to have a conversation, talk to people as if they are your equals, not in a patronising, insulting way as if we are tantrumming, over-sensitive little children who need to be pacified. If you can't see people who voted leave as your equals, your politics are almost definitely going to be a little bit lacking on the meaningful analysis side.

*Who is happy with the way Brexit is going?
*
Me.
Ecstatic.

Juncker has put on a perfect display of all that is wrong with the EU and that has reinforced my resolve.

No-one has any answers, because there are only projections. Nobody knows what's going to happen.

Brexiters - without exception - are presenting this as an amazing opportunity: freedom to do what we want, without the jackboot of EU red tape imprisoning us, and to hell with any of the consequences.

I'm generally an optimist/glass half full kind of person but I see things being FAR worse for the ordinary people of this country for generations to come.

And all for a few blue passports and fewer foreigners.

And I agree that Juncker represents everything that people detest about the EU. We've got two pretty horrendous people heading up negotiations. I don't hold out much hope.

Wrontrouser you have invoked the 'I'm not answering because hurt feelings' thing again. It is so so annoying to actively want to read a response and be refused because of twaddle about insults. Remainers cannot help but come to the conclusion that there isn't an answer and this is a convenient excuse.

" talk to people as if they are your equals, not in a patronising, insulting way as if we are tantrumming, over-sensitive little children..."

...but you just refused refused to read on in my post because despite the very good points it raises you don't like the tone. Ditto the previous email with the insulting comments..... re-read your description and re-think those actions.

I struggle to treat people who use this tactic to avoid saying they haven't got an answer as an equal. I can't say I would do what you have because I would not, it does not advance the debate.

The whole "you're still being mean" is childish in and of itself and becomes a sideshow from the unanswered yet important questions. Just move on and answer the question, I'm desperate to know what this answer is.

CopperRose May embodies everything that is wrong with the self-assured delusional Little Britain attitude that the far-Right of this country has cultivated.

Wrontrouser you have invoked the 'I'm not answering because hurt feelings' thing again

The whole "you're still being mean" is childish in and of itself..

You are misunderstanding me. I am not saying I don't want to have a conversation with people who are talking down to leavers because I am a sensitive little soul and my feelings are hurt.

I am saying that, 10 months on from the referendum, I don't think that people who are still resorting to generalised, stereotyping insults towards 17.4 million leave voters, and whose analysis of why people voted leave has not evolved on from "they are uneducated and stupid", are worth trying to have a discussion with.

My political beliefs are based on equality and respect. I can't see how I am ever going to find common ground with people whose politics are not based on equality and respect and I'm not massively minded to get into conversations with them.

That it what I am saying - it is not about my feelings.

I do wonder how much some pp try to think this through from the opposite point of view. In real life, if you are having a conversation with someone (at a party, in a queue or anywhere) and they start insulting you, do you carry on talking to them? Me neither.

Where people got this idea that a good way to debate politics is to throw insults, I really don't know.

Thank you for clarifying that WrongTrouser I too, genuinely, just want to discuss what is happening (the negotiations as far as they are being reported, including reporting style (so all angles of bias) and what 'might' be happening or 'could happen' in terms of key issues) in the context of what happened before (the vote itself, the drivers for people voting the way they did (both leave and remain). So:

"What I don't understand is what exactly.... we've got in the way of cards to play:-

Threaten a trade war? - well we'd lose 50% of our exports, they'd only lose 12% of theirs.

Plus that would prompt a mass exodus of banks and manufacturing jobs to.... er.... the EU.

Refuse to guarantee the rights of EU citizens? - well they'll all just fuck off home, leaving huge gaps in our workforce. While the vast majority of Brits living in the EU don't work, and will be no loss at all to their current host nation.

Threaten to.... er..... what else?"

This above appears to me to be FACT - what cards do we have to play in this negotiation?

We also have the problems of:

1. Border between NI and the Republic. The EU has already kicked up a bit of a shitstorm with Unionists by promising automatic EU membership for the North if it votes for a United Ireland. I'm unsure whether it was intentionally incendiary or simply foolhardy but with the deterioration of relations in NI since the dissolution of the Assembly and death of McGuinness it does not come at a good time.
2. French threats to stop dealing with the migrant issue at Calais. I have to say I don't envy the job they are doing there but I fear for our truckers and regular travellers if intervention is reduced in any meaningful way. Yet what do they have to lose on this one, other than a major and publicly unpopular thorn in their side?

here I completely agree with your post at 11.40. I was going to write virtually the same but decided it was pointless.

It doesn't matter how you pose the questions, they are absolutely always ignored by Leavers because the reality is, they don't have any answers.

saying a post was rude/ insulting/ wrong tone etc is just an attempt to deflect from this. It's a well trodden path.

You won't get any answers to those perfectly reasonable questions because Leavers on here simply don't want to think about them.

Who has threatened a trade war? Merely go to wto rules and then tariffs apply. The tariffs on the 12% is greater than the 50%. The EU is showing its true colours with demands for money and releasing constant sound bites. Sounds like North Korea or russia the way it is acting.

The EU is showing its true colours with demands for money and releasing constant sound bites.

Have you listened to TM? She is a walking soundbite

Whatever you might think of the EU I don't think you can accuse them of talking in soundbites?

What makes you say that? I think they've been quite clear.

bear
Leaking information saying they want to discuss EU nationals something the uk wants to do quicker. They've 60 billlion reasons not to discuss that yet and have nothing but a desire to punish the UK for exercising a democratic right. "The uk cannot leave better off" is my particular favourite. Surely it should be there is no way they can be better off as the EU is the last bastion of trade and goodwill? No?

May gets away with awful domestic policies because so many people concentrate on brexit.

Was just about to answer some of the q's above.

Was just about to answer some of the q's above. Yeah, sure you were Wrong....

I bet those answers are right on the tip of your tongue. Absolutely the only thing from stopping you from providing informative Brexiter point of view answers to those points is that Bear came on and said you wouldn't answer....

....and you want to be treated like an equal and a grown up. Well how about sticking around and answering the questions like one? I'm afraid your latest reply just feels like another sideshow from the main issues is being created. If you have answers then state them. Prove the name-calling remainers on the thread wrong by killing their irksome stereotypes with impressive arguments/viewpoints/facts/opinions. Similar to when people on other threads say don't feed the troll. Don't flounce at the meanness/name calling/assumptions. Let the argument speak for itself.

It's a bit like when police are interviewing suspects and the suspect goes 'no comment' for the whole interview. Adverse assumptions will be drawn in the absence of evidence(argument in this case) to the contrary. It's natural.