To ask who is happy with the way Brexit is going?

[Bearbehind]

I've started a few threads with similar titles over the months but this weekend seems to have been an outpouring of bad news so I wondered who is actually happy with how things are going

From where I'm standing

-It's looking like the government are actually as deluded as many of us feared if you believe the leaked account of this weeks meeting with the EU.
-Theresa May's election campaign is made up of staged events with staged audiences and preselected questions

• there is no opposition to speak of

Who is happy with these continued sound bites in lieu of actual answers and policies?

I am confused as to how this is all going.

As far as I can tell the UK Gov position seems to be that Johnny Foreigner will do as they are told. Understandably the EU seems to disagree.

Some issues:

1. Rights of EU citizens in UK/UK citizens in EU.

As far as I can tell, the UK thinks this is an easy thing to deal with. Basically making EU citizens third country nationals (so like immigrants from anywhere else). This then fails to reflect that fact that the EU would have to do the same for UK citizens in the EU. Imagine all those OAPs in Spain & France coming back to the UK as their healthcare is no longer free. That is basically what May wants. But EU wants current rights maintain, not simple allowances to stay.

1. Confidentiality.

This isnt a divorce between two private parties. This is one country leaving a union of 27 countries. The union itself has a parliament and executive as does each country. This isnt a few people around a table passing ideas on bits of paper over to each other. This is a huge thing with lots of interests. This is never going to be the quiet, appease the xenophobic press, thing that May wants. And never was going to be.

1. Scale of issue. May seems to be using previous agreements where the UK didnt sign up to stuff and did it anyway as the framework for Brexit. But that was just small scale stuff. This is leaving the club so the club has to look and be better for members than it does for non-members. Why Brexit should be a success for both sides is beyond me. Brexit is, and can only be, a failure for both sides. It is the scale of the failure that is being discussed. The UK cannot have the same access to the EU as it does just now, otherwise it would be pointless leaving.

1. Money. I find the bill thing odd to be honest. The UK signed up to certain costs and needs to meet them. I think there are also assets that the UK can claim which can help mitigate the liabilities but to childishly say no Brexit Bill is never going to work. Why should it?

remembers what the purpose of the thread really is

The purpose of this thread and probably every other one I've started on the subject, is to find out what we have to look forward to outside the EU wrong

It's not a difficult concept to grasp, sadly it's impossible to get an answer that doesn't involve bravado like 'we'll be freeeeee!'

We know about a lot of the consequences already- why is it impossible for anyone to tell us how they think those will be outweighed by the great things we can look forward to.

Brexit costs rise again....

I think the most immediate item of concern will be the cost of replenishing the Downing St wine cellars following the dinner

I think it's far too early to tell Bear post the question In a year and we will all have more info.

Your assumption here, that I, or other leave voters, feel we have any need to proove that bigoted, stereotyped, condescending, patronising comments about us are wrong says an awful lot about your attitudes. I feel no need to proove you or anyone else wrong. If you want to cling on to bigoted, narrow minded views and carry on asking questions whilst throwing insults at the same time, and then expressing faux outrage that people don't want to answer your questions, knock yourself out.

Yes, of course it is bear.

Perhaps, here and bear try your tactic in real life and report back on how far it gets you. Try engaging people in conservation, but make sure to pepper your comments with insults. Then complain that the subjects of your insults don't want to engage with you, and state that this means they don't have any answers.

Perhaps try this one on your local high street:

Do you know the way to the nearest chemist, you stupid arse? Oh, she just walked off - well she obviously doesn't know where the chemist is

Let me know how you get on. No don't bother, wasted enough time, hiding thread.

wrong neither here nor I have insulted you at all on this thread yet you pop up time and time again to tell us you can't answer because people are rude to Leavers.

Given you repeatedly insist Leavers should not be treated as a generic group, do you not see the irony here?

Why not engage in discussion and try and answer the questions under discussion or admit you can't and move on.

I had to giggle at the response to 'proving Remainers wrong' here

I predicted wrongs response virtually word for word on that one.

It's another stock sentence to deflect from attempting to answer questions.

batgirl anyone can tell us what has happened after it has happened?

I'm asking for the positives you forsee happening; the tangible benefits that made you choose this path, the things that will outweigh the known costs.

Well so far very little has actually happened apart from a little dick swinging. But I am reassured we have a woman standing up for us, I bet that Juncker thought he was just going to steamroll right over Theresa.

Can you just imagine him ringing Merkel in a panic, "Angela, Angela, she is actually going to take the UK out, she actually means what she says. How are we going to pay for it all now?"

jamie why is it even relevant that TM is female?

You keep asking what the good is, well unfortunately until the shit is shovelled out of the way no one will actually know. Independence sounds great to have and I'm sure it will be. Stop asking questions that clearly don't have answers yet just to make yourself look good 🙄

Because the male politicians are always screwing us over.

I don't believe their sex has anything to do with it. You want more female politicians go and be one.

Or just vote for one, which it seems half the country is doing now ;)

Can I just point out I never insulted Wrong. I raised the 'hurt feelings' argument as being a sideshow (in a tone she didn't approve of) then she banged on and on about it and left, which was, I hate to say it, unsurprising as it happens every single time I try to get an answer from a Brexiter.

In real life I get different forms of 'sideshow' when I ask the same Brexit) questions to Brexiters - they tend to tell me to check my privilege or that 'no-one knows the answer' (which I think implies we shouldn't bother to try to work our likely answers...) or make references to the reasons they voted (we're taking back control) rather than the likely/possible outcomes on those specific issues/questions. I definitely don't get answers to those Brexit questions though. Ever.

You keep asking what the good is, well unfortunately until the shit is shovelled out of the way no one will actually know.

See, this is more bravado nonsense.

What 'shit' are you referring to? What will change when this 'shit has been shovelled'?

Why do you think I'm trying to make myself look good by asking these questions?

17m of you choose this path, surely some of you have answers to these questions even if it's only your aspirations for what will happen.

I'm hoping then that once we are out and all the negotiations are dealt with, whatever they may be, that we can start from scratch almost. Start trading again but this time independently maybe even out the money we were sending away back into this country and giving jobs back to the people. I'll admit I'm not all that clued up on how things work but maybe if we stop outsourcing everything and make things ourselves again we could be better off.
The shit I refer to is losing some trading or the way it is done now and working out how best to use our money to keep us all afloat.

The reason I think brexit happened was because the county is going to shit anyway and people have gotten fed up with choosing party after party and getting nowhere with nothing done and people have got desperate and have opted for a massive change in the hope that something now has to be sorted out. I can't speak for everyone only myself, and I didn't vote as I've had bigger things on my mind and couldn't leave the house to do so anyway. I'm also in Northern Ireland so I can't vote in The coming elections I don't believe.
There is no need to call my response "bravado" because I just think that change needed to happen and when people get desperate they go for the most drastic change in the hope something will improve.
No one can tell the good because honestly we just don't know.

Oh I see this is really just one of those Remoaner threads where Remainers write insults and call leavers stupid for not being able to explain in detail what the end result of the negotiations will be before they have even started.

I dont want to speak for anyone but I would imagine the shit that needs to be shoveled out of the way is people like Juncker who straight after having a meeting with the PM starts spreading gossip about ignorant leavers who live on another planet, wont do what they are told and wont hand over all their money.

Exactly, I'm not sure how those that voted leave can explain what will happen anymore than those who voted remain.

jamie, don't you see the hypocrisy in calling us Remoaners then referring to insults

I think there probably a lot of merit in what dontpull has just posted about people's thought process but unfortunately you can't, or at least shouldn't, risk the fate of a country on a wing and a prayer, hoping fir something better with no clue how it might happen.

Seriously, how do you think 'starting from scratch' would work in practice?

What should businesses/ people/ families do in the mean time?

If we are going to become more self sufficient how will that happen? What can we start to produce?

I wouldn't know because honestly I don't believe I am smart enough to run a country and I leave that to the ones who are able to. It doesn't actually matter what I think because I've no way of voicing that to the people who can change the way things are.
I believe that the country wasn't getting any better in the EU so why not try being out? If the country hasn't gotten better for years and years and more cuts are happening and we are sending money into the EU with no really benefit to the people then why not try leaving and see what happens. My thoughts are, we wouldn't have been given the choice to leave (just like we didn't have the choice to join) if we couldn't manage on our own. Think about it, why would we be given the chance to vote for something that could be extremely detrimental to us?

Bearbehind, I thought remoaner had entered the vernacular now as a remainer who moans about Brexit all the time? Is moaning an insult?

risk the fate of a country on a wing and a prayer So your saying the UK is a basket case that only the Eu is keeping afloat and the only chance we have of succeeding is a wing and a prayer.
I dont think so, where is the detailed explanation of why this is the case?

Think about it, why would we be given the chance to vote for something that could be extremely detrimental to us?

OMFG- I think that has to be the comment that has truly shocked me the most in the last 10 months.

jamie the detailed explanation has been evidenced time and time again on these threads.

There is no plan for leaving, there are no answers on how it will work out so how can it be anything other than a 'wing and a prayer'.

I've said from the beginning, leaving the EU eventually might be the right decision, but to do it with no plan is utter madness.

Why has it shocked you? Honestly I may be alone in my thinking but why would we be given the choice to vote when we hadn't been given it before, if there was any chance it could end soo badly?