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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask who is happy with the way Brexit is going?

263 replies

Bearbehind · 01/05/2017 16:15

I've started a few threads with similar titles over the months but this weekend seems to have been an outpouring of bad news so I wondered who is actually happy with how things are going

From where I'm standing

-It's looking like the government are actually as deluded as many of us feared if you believe the leaked account of this weeks meeting with the EU.
-Theresa May's election campaign is made up of staged events with staged audiences and preselected questions

  • there is no opposition to speak of

Who is happy with these continued sound bites in lieu of actual answers and policies?

OP posts:
Bearbehind · 01/05/2017 19:30

live could you put a bit of meat on the bones with your post.

Why are you happy with TM leading us?

What has she done to convince you all will be well?

Why was leaving so the EU 'always the best decision'?

OP posts:
FelixtheMouse · 01/05/2017 19:30

Well that's not what's coming across from your posts. And I am not blanking out reality. I realise (as it seems you do not) that the negotiations - which have not yet started BTW - require both sides to reach an agreement. The remaining states of the EU cannot force terms on the UK and vice versa. No one be can say how the negotiations will pan out as no one has ever done this before. Arguably, the nearest thing in history was the treaty of 1783 which split the 13 colonies off from the first British Empire.

Renaissance2017 · 01/05/2017 19:32

Bear, it's happening. Nobody needs convince you of anything. Whether you like it or not the UK will not be part of the EU by 2020.

Better to be an optimist than a pessimist. We will still all end up the same, just the optimist has a better journey.

Bearbehind · 01/05/2017 19:36

So, a wing and a prayer then renaisannce Hmm

Forgive me for thinking the fate of a country should be based on a bit more than that.

That's what it boils down to isn't it?

Those who blindly believe anything, despite all the evidence to the contrary, and refuse to question a single thing, and those who want a few more answers.

OP posts:
Spectre8 · 01/05/2017 19:37

Well there is one thing that is certain and that is that Bear is not happy and why does bear need us to say why we believe in TM or answer the numerous questions posted when it won't make one iote of difference to how they already think. Bear won't be chaning his/her mind anytime soon and even if brexit goes well and we do end up better off, I bet my house any remainer who would turn around and admit they were wrong, especialyl those remainers who think its acceptable to call leavers cunts and all manner of names.

Renaissance2017 · 01/05/2017 19:40

Fair enough Bear. Enjoy your misery.

Pansiesandredrosesandmarigolds · 01/05/2017 19:42

It's going much worse than I thought. I didn't think it'd go well.

Bearbehind · 01/05/2017 19:44

spectre if you had the courage of your convictions you wouldn't need to resort to slagging me off.

I'd love to be wrong here.

This is happening whatever I think of it.

I'd just like to know what the benefits are, because, from where im looking, unless you are a TM disciple who believes in happily ever after, there are none.

OP posts:
MarciaBlaine · 01/05/2017 19:45

"Marcia
If you were to get divorced and your spouse said give me lots of money first then I'll discuss what you might be able to have. Would that be reasonable? Certainly would not be in my book id tell said spouse to go forth and multiply!" But this isn't a divorce in legal terms though. It is terminating an ongoing legal commercial contract. Most contracts have a termination clause, with explicit instructions on the consequences of that termination (for convenience in this case). It is quite normal that there are stipulations about the ongoing rights and costs that affect both parties. Most of my contracts actually DO specify in advance what these are though. Here we are on a wing and a prayer territory. It is SO badly thought out and being so terribly executed that as someone with 20 years of contract negotiation experience, I shudder.

MarciaBlaine · 01/05/2017 19:52

Here, the UK has committed to budget planning several years in advance. We can't just say "oh fuck it, I changed my mind". There are huge complications over reciprocal health, welfare and pension agreements that we can't just stop overnight, just as one example.

Spectre8 · 01/05/2017 19:54

Ha slagging you off are you being serious? I haven't called you names or anything of the sort. All I have said is that you are clearly aren't happy about brexit - do you deny it? and that no amount of answering your questions is going to change that - all your responses prove that. Anyone offering an alternative viewpoint you have dismissed. You have said you started numerous threads on it so clearly after all those threads you still haven't changed your mind at all.

Livelovebehappy · 01/05/2017 20:03

To answer your question Bear, there is absolutely no-one, and I really do mean no-one, in opposition, or even in the Tory party, who is more able to take us through Brexit than TM. TBH, I would love there to be a credible person in opposition, as it makes for healthy politics to have at least a two party race, but that's not going to happen. As a matter of interest Bear, who do you think is best placed at the moment to negotiate us through Brexit? Please, please don't suggest Corbyn.

Bearbehind · 01/05/2017 20:15

spectre, instead of your bravado, maybe you can answer the question I've been asking for months.

What are the benefits of leaving which are going to counter the consequences, including but not limited to:-

  • lack of investment due to uncertainty
  • loss of EU agencies and financial passporting
  • fall in sterling
  • lack of options over NI
  • trade tariffs
  • NTBs
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herethereandeverywhere · 01/05/2017 20:19

LivelovE you said "I'm very happy with TM leading us into Brexit. Even more so when I come on a thread like this where Leavers have been called Cunts, deluded idiots and swivel eyed loons. I'm glad not to be associated with a group of people who use language like this to describe someone else solely because they dare to have an opinion different to their own."

So what do you make of TM's assertion that the country are uniting behind Brexit? Has she got that wrong? Is she being disingenuous? If so, could that also be the case for other statements she is making about Brexit and her GE pitch?

If 'we' are all uniting, has anyone seen any evidence of it?

Bearbehind · 01/05/2017 20:19

live, one of the most frustrating things right now is there is no credible alternative to May.

Corbyn is a fuckwit stuck about 3 decades ago.

But that doesn't make May right.

She needs opposition.

A large majority will just make her more schoolmistress-ish then ever.

It won't actually help in negiotiations

OP posts:
MojoMoon · 01/05/2017 20:20

The divorce analogy is really grating.

It is the termination of a contractual relationship. It is quite normal for this to involve payment.

When a large company decides to sell one of its divisions or assets, negotiations with the buyer will include, early on, who will be liable for various on going arrangements, such a pension liabilities, contracts with outside suppliers relating the division entered into by the selling company etc.

These can mean ongoing payments from one company to another for years and years.

So it's not that weird that we may well have to pay them something. This is not the EU being a wronged spouse seeking revenge. It is doing a perfectly rational and legal thing.

If we don't pay, we can still leave. We just won't be able to have free trade with any EU member state. Maybe the UK will decide that is the price it is willing to pay. If not, we have to pay the EU the cold hard cash. That is the choice. It's not a romantic relationship.

There is a weird obsession of Davis to "get us out of the ECJ".
Any legal contract has to have some authority to enforce it. If you sign a contract to buy a house, you need a court system to enforce it if the other person decides not to move out and refuses to hand over the keys.
The ECJ is needed from enforce any aspect of a trade agreement that the UK has with the EU. Otherwise who enforces the deal? There are a lot of very mundane rules, like regulations about the safe transport of chemicals or how gas pipelines function, that are harmonised across the EU to make life safer and to allow companies to trade. If we refuse to follow the rules for how to package some chemical, we can't sell any chemicals to anyone in the EU.
If we decide we are fine with the chemical packaging rules, we can sign an agreement to enforce them. But there needs to be a body to enforce that we can complain to if it turns out Portugal is not enforcing these rules and therefore are at an advantage because it is cheaper to stick them in an envelope than in a sealed drum.
That body is a European court. What else can it be?

This obsession with not being dictated to by the ECJ is worrying. All trade agreements (WTO, NAFTA, east Asian trade community) have a legal body they can fine or punish participants for breaking rules.
If we want to trade with anyone, we are going to need to be overseen by some international court.

The press are doing a woeful job with understanding and reporting brexit, seeing it entirely as some emotional divorce (both leave and remain) or statement of patriotism (leave only). Although the press are largely just giving the public what it wants which is some some emotional story and a hatred of experts, evidence, and the reality that life, law and politics all involves compromise.

David Allen Green in the FT is the only person worth reading on it.

ForalltheSaints · 01/05/2017 20:24

In answer to the OPs question, probably UKIP are happy as a hard Brexit looks increasingly likely.

herethereandeverywhere · 01/05/2017 20:29

Great post Mojo

InfiniteSheldon · 01/05/2017 20:29

Thank you for the David Allen Green reminder Monqo I've read some but will keep up with him a bit more now

Blowingthroughthejasmineinmymi · 01/05/2017 20:32

Better to be an optimist than a pessimist. We will still all end up the same, just the optimist has a better journey

^^ Great line and true in all aspect of life. Will use it Smile

MarciaBlaine · 01/05/2017 20:33

The pessimists will keep fighting for the least worst outcome though rather than leaving it to airy fairy land.

Allofaflumble · 01/05/2017 20:35

Spectre 8 well said.

JassyRadlett · 01/05/2017 20:36

Better to be an optimist than a pessimist. We will still all end up the same, just the optimist has a better journey

Or the pessimist has the cellar full of bottled water and tinned food while the optimist starves. Grin

Blowingthroughthejasmineinmymi · 01/05/2017 20:39

But to keep a cellar of food is being optimistic.

Viviennemary · 01/05/2017 20:47

I am glad Teresa May appears to be standing up to the bullies in the EU. In a way this has shown Europe to not really be our 'friends'. It was becoming increasingly obvious they weren't our friends and that's one of the reasons why there was a vote for Brexit. They were out to do the UK down IMHO. They can whistle when they are invaded by Russia or some other country. And they will come bleating to us that's for sure.