To be utterly disgusted and depressed that women think its ok to make small penis gags?

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Just been reading a thread further down where yes some scumbag bloke had been horrible to someone. Lots of outrage and tell him he has a small dick, tell him he has a micro penis basically mock the size of his genitals.

Can you imagine if a woman upset a bloke and all his mates said tell her she has awful labia, tell her her fanny is horrible, tell her she doesnt look normal down there
Its horrific!!

Do you know how many lovely men with smaller penises get inundated with this? Do you know how many teenage boys worry themselves to death because of comments like these?

Its depressing/sexist/cruel and plain nasty. You should be ashamed of yourselves!

MerchantofVenice
fascicle Really? It's a pretty mainstream book...

If people are going to use a specific reference/concept from a book, I would expect them to be accurate, even if the difference in this case seems marginal. The book is called A Handmaid's Tale and Atwood uses the term 'handmaid' throughout. Hence my cynicism when the term 'handmaiden' crops up as an insult, which it does, repeatedly. The idea of posters using a term to denigrate other women when they have picked up that term second-hand, and won't fully understand its intended meaning, is really not a good one.

Ha. The Handmaid's Tale.

I've been thinking about this a lot, and I wanted to say something before I go off to bake 200 cupcakes.

Yes, the term "handmaiden" is offensive. It is intended to be. It is used to describe a particular attitude and set of behaviours that some women have which are damaging to women as a whole. It is not a synonym for misogynist. There are misogynist women who are not "handmaidens"- Margaret Thatcher springs to mind. It is not a term for "people who don't agree with me", or "women who don't identify as feminists" It is very specific. It means women who, often for their own perceived personal benefit, collude with their oppression. Not women who are cowed into collusion, or women who don't, for whatever reason, understand that they are being oppressed. Women who actively collude. In the anti racist world, some people use the term Uncle Tom to describe the same syndrome.

I see nothing wrong with calling out such attitudes. Feminism does not mean "women right or wrong". And just because a woman makes a choice does not make it a feminist choice.

Personally, it's a word I try not to use, partly because it has become a bit of a cliche, partly because it gives anti feminists a perfect excuse to derail a discussion. But it is a "thing" and it needs a word. In the spirit of "Feminazi" may I offer you "Quisling"? (Not a serious suggestion) "Collaborateuse"?

Isn't the bigger issue the symbolic association of penis size with masculinity? This is something that men perpetuate possibly more than women do. Perhaps if we (meaning men really) addressed this, as well as other issues associated with masculinity and femininity as gender roles, the issue would not exist, except as a possible medical / sexual one that could be addressed without stigma.

Well we will have to disagree on this word.

Again you choose to ignore the fact that its use may itself be misogynstic. Your comment about avoiding it because partly because it gives anti feminists a perfect excuse to derail a discussion shows that.

"Uncle Tom" is generally used in an offensive way so comparing handmaiden to Uncle Tom hardly strengthens the case.

I note also you are putting a different interpretation on its meaning than Merchant did. Merchant defined it as a female mysognist - so we have an unpleasant word being allocated 2 meanings. Again, not particularly helpful.

I have no need of a word to mean "feminazi"

I will however judge anyone whose argument relies on the use of any of these words and conclude that I can safely ignore it.

partly because it gives anti feminists a perfect excuse to derail a discussion

And in this thread was used by someone who says she is a feminist to derail the discussion.

There were two threads where the small dick thing was rife, I'm sure of it.
But yes, Leafcushion, I read your op, I felt really sorry that twat had got in touch with you in that way, what a git, (however, I didn't like what you wrote!).
a. You don't know if he has a small dick or not, so why mention it?
b. Why make him feel good? "he he - I don't have a small dick!"
c. Why bring random men with small dicks who might be perfectly nice into it at all?
I don't think its fair or nice, and if one is against body shaming, then one should be against it whenever it turns up...

"Again you choose to ignore the fact that its use may itself be misogynstic."

Sorry-I didn't ignore that. I don't think I understand what you mean

"What we have said is that there aren't any on this thread. That was the issue"

I asked you earlier whether you meant that the word should never be used at all, or just notnon this thread. I understood your answer to mean that if it was meant to be rude which it is, practically by definition then it shouldn't be used at all. Am I misunderstanding you?

Sorry-I didn't ignore that. I don't think I understand what you mean

Used as a way to shut down other women's views. It is often used in that way. As indeed is Uncle Tom.

Just calling oneself a ''feminist" does not preclude misogynistic behaviour. I was repeatedly told on here what I was thinking for example- not just that a poster thought I was wrong- but a poster had a better insight to what I was thinking than I had. That of course is the sort of behaviour feminists deplore in men. Pointing that out led to my being accused of saying the poster was an MRA-(a huge exaggeration)

Well, any insult can be used as an attempt to shut down other people's views. I was called small minded and blinkered earlier- was that misogynist?

The think about "handmaiden" is that it specifically not a catch-all insult, but a very specific one. I am not denying that it is offensive. It is intended to be. As is Uncle Tom.

histinyhandsarefrozen I can acknowledge that I had no need to bring up a counter example about penises, but remember it was a question about whether women use it or not - and it's my opinion they don't, compared to men who use women's weight to put them down.

However I can see that even bringing it up as a topic can be upsetting and needless (as can the question of women's weight.) But I certainly don't think i made a "gag" about penises as this OP said, nor that anything I said was disgusting or depressing.

Leaf, I'm not sure if it was your OP, the op of this thread was specifically responding to. There was another thread about the same time, 'you're bad in bed' - where a lot of the replies were 'tell him he's got a small cock'.

If you read both, one after the other, you might well think, 'argh, this is a nasty trend' - I really don't think it was directed at you alone.

Hope you sorted that tosser out!

Ooh you got there, itsmine. Now, that wasn't hard either, was it?

I do see why some people struggle with feminism now. Some folk can't decode stuff very well. If someone's not screaming "I hate women", they're not sexist...

This also. Merchant asked for a critical analysis of the opening post to support her analysis that it has an ulterior anti- feminist motive. We did and could not find one. Instead of thinking oh well I might be wrong- or oh well there are different interpretations- Itsmine, Dixie and were found to be just too thick.

The think about "handmaiden" is that it specifically not a catch-all insult, but a very specific one

Not that specific given Merchant has given it a different meaning. And it does get used as a catch all.

Itsmine- so you have changed your mind since you posted-

"In summary whether your a mn feminist or not, it isn't ok to sexually insult anyone of either sex.

Nor is it ok to use expressions such as ' "handmaiden'"

Good to hear.

"And it does get used as a catch all."

Fair enough. I've just never heard it. Time to move to "collaborateuse"!

Bertrand
It is not a term for "people who don't agree with me", or "women who don't identify as feminists" It is very specific. It means women who, often for their own perceived personal benefit, collude with their oppression. Not women who are cowed into collusion, or women who don't, for whatever reason, understand that they are being oppressed. Women who actively collude.

Have you read the book Bertrand? (Dionne made a valid point earlier about the misuse of the concept of handmaiden as far as Atwood's book is concerned). If you have read the book, how far/how willingly do you think the handmaids collude with their oppression? Why is handmaiden (which doesn't appear to feature in the book at all) more appropriate than other categories of women in the book (e.g. the Aunts)?

I was repeatedly told on here what I was thinking for example- not just that a poster thought I was wrong- but a poster had a better insight to what I was thinking than I had.
This is what angers me, along with using handmaiden and cool wife. .
Insinuating that i don't know my own mind and i'm simply agreeing with men ( even when i've held some views longer than i've held a partner).

Regardless of the interpretation of handmaiden or micro dick, I find it interesting that some posters proclaiming to be feminists seem to have such contempt for women
I was rather shocked the way the thread went last night!
bert not included, i may not agree with your views you have been reasonable through the whole discussion. I've atleast enjoyed reading your different view point.

Twenty pages of thread because of hurt manfeelz. Wow.
I am glad the debate somehow went on to be about feminism.
As has been pointed out earlier, men's problems with their small penises is all selfmade. They established a culture in which telling someone he has a small penis is an insult, and now they have to deal with women doing it. Big surprise. Yawn

Have you read the book Bertrand? (Dionne made a valid point earlier about the misuse of the concept of handmaiden as far as Atwood's book is concerned). If you have read the book, how far/how willingly do you think the handmaids collude with their oppression? Why is handmaiden (which doesn't appear to feature in the book at all) more appropriate than other categories of women in the book (e.g. the Aunts)?

Handmaiden is an universally understood term for a servant. Aunt is an universally understood term for a female relative. There's a difference.

I haven't read the book yet, so don't know how far the handmaids are brainwashed into colluding with their own oppression, and how many of them oppose it, but here's the thing: I don't believe that real-life handmaidens make a choosy choice in a vacuum. I do think real-life handmaidens suffer from brainwashing and Stockholm Syndrome, too. (Which of course they hate to be told, so I usually don't mention that. In the end, it doesn't matter as the effect of what they do is the same, and they need to be called out on it.)